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How to use the Resolution Independence with FF and when is possible

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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8251
Filters: 33
One of the very good and awesome things about Filter Forge and makes it really stand out fr om the competition of 2D graphic software, is the ability to render the result at any resolution size that you want and do not depend on the source image size as it happens in most 2D graphic design software, BUT regretably this does not happen with ALL the filters available in the library, because some of them are created and built with DEPENDENCE on the main image input and so this way is not possible

Is exactly the same as it happens with the FF Photoshop plugin, as any result from ANY filter will always depend on the original source image loaded through Photoshop, and you can´t change the resolution result

WHEN YOU CAN USE THE RESOLUTION INDEPENDENCE FEATURE?

Using filters belonging to the Texture Filters

All these are filters that are self generated by FF and does not depend on any external image source

If the filter you choose belongs to any of the "Textures Filters" categories you can easily customize the resolution at any size you want using the menu File --> New Image --> And put the resolution size but this is disabled if you are using this same filter with the FF photoshop plugin, so then, the way to do it is to make a new blank empty image with the size resolution you want in photoshop and then with this activate FF plugin.

Using filters belonging to the Effects Filters

This filters depend on external source images to work

If the filter you choose belongs to any of the "Effects Filters" categories, it will depend totally on how the filter loads the source images, to know if you can use the resolution independence or not.

If the filter input image is done through the main source input menu (File --> Open Image) then you are NOT going to be able to choose the result size resolution because it will be based and depend on the source image resolution loaded and can´t be changed.

If instead the filter loads ALL the source images it may need through any color controls included then you can go to File --> New Image --> And put the resolution size and have the result with resolution independence.

BUT this said here just above, does not work with FF Photoshop plugin this way, because the new image menu is disabled as it depends totally on the original source image loaded from photoshop, so the only way to have the resolution you want is to resize and enlarge or reduce the source image previously and before using the FF plugin.

Suggestion to make your filters ALWAYS with resolution independence

Well, I have found a way to do it in the right way to be able to always do it, and I have already included it in some of my filters ( Organic , Alphabet E or Alphabet ) and is very easy and simple to do, just let the user of the filter choose between using Main Image source OR color control input.

This way you have the best from both "worlds", I mean if the filter includes this:

1 - MAIN - you can use the main image source to be able to use any of the presets directly and automatically, without any change, but can´t resize or can´t save preset with external image source

2 - COLOR CONTROL - and then you can also use the checkbox to activate color controls, and be able to use any size resolution and be able to save the presets with external image, BUT the main problem with color controls is that you can´t choose any of the presets freely, and must configure and customize each preset each time every single time you want to use or test it (unless you save as a new preset the customized result)

FILTER FORGE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS TOPIC

Quote
In the FF features page you can read the following

Image

All filters in Filter Forge are generated procedurally and don't depend on external bitmaps; therefore, they are resolution-independent. You can render the same filter in any resolution without losing any detail


As far as I know this text is wrong written as it is not true for ALL the filters, as is not true that ALL the filters are resolution independent and that do not depend on any external bitmap, because there are lots of filters that depend on external images.

So I would rewrite it as follows

All filters in Filter Forge that belong to any of the Texture Filter categories are generated procedurally and don't depend on external bitmaps; therefore, they are resolution-independent. You can render the same filter in any resolution without losing any detail. The filters that belong to the Effects Filters categories will depend if they load the bitmaps through menu Open image or through color controls

What is put on the website is surely true for all the filters that belong to the Texture Category wh ere all of them are self generated by FF and does not depend on any external image source, BUT many others filters that depend on the external source image and is using the MAIN image source input (File --> Open Image) can´t use the resolution independence
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Skybase
2D/3D Generalist

Posts: 2802
Filters: 67
Kinda seems like you missed something about how the program works.

Do note: bitmap components do implicitly render internal images given certain operations are better calculated bitmap.

It also doesn't seem appropriate for you to write "As far as I know this text is wrong". You've missed the point. lol it always seems like you have somethings right, somethings misunderstood, and somethings wrong. I just think you have this fuzzy understanding of how this (and consequently many others) work. I personally think (after years of seeing your writings), it always seemed like you based off of a lot of assumed... fuzzy knowledge that's not really grounded somewhere. You basically know something... but don't get it sort of thing. Oh ... well... guess that's like as frank as I could get. smile;)

You know, I'd study technical stuff like this from the ground up. Not just FilterForge but everything. But it always seemed like schools and otherwise fail to teach the truly technical side of high-end art software.

Blah... k I'm just saying stuff. smile;)
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Skybase
2D/3D Generalist

Posts: 2802
Filters: 67
Addendum: In the end, to me, I just feel your "forum articles" aren't the best of resources. I understand them as being lacking. If you want to teach people, you need more grounding and a lot more studying of core techniques. Teachers just need to know more about what they're talking about rather than founding it on speculation, assumption, or belief. When I read what you write for stuff like this, I always find you somehow ending up writing "as far as I know" or "I think". I admit, sometimes I do say "I think" even as I teach people, but I typically avoid faulty statements.

To be fair though, these little things you do are probably what's just keeping yourself afloat. You really do learn a thing or two just writing yourself stuff. I'm simply here being critical because you publicize your findings. I don't think anybody would want to learn the wrong thing.

I'm sometimes a guest speaker for various occasions with graphics and I often keep a couple tips:
1. Know what you're going to talk about. - Don't teach if you don't know, teach yourself then teach.
2. Assumptions shouldn't be taught.
3. You'll regret teaching the wrong thing. (It really sucks and I have my own stories about that)
4. Use appropriate wording. (That's like something I suffer).
5. People want to care, it's just that they care less when you write/speak carelessly.
6. There's no excuse for teaching the wrong information. <--- Life tip. smile;)
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8251
Filters: 33
I am sorry that I have done it wrong again, but will follow your suggestions, and think twice and well when making something like this again

I agree with you and you are right in what you have said, and is true what you are telling, BUT I feel that that you are not refering to ALL what I have written, is like you are refering mainly to the second part of my post, I mean to all the part after FILTER FORGE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS TOPIC that is where as you say I have not all the needed information and I have wrong thoughts and misunderstood things, because on the first part before the FILTER FORGE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS TOPIC all Is from my personal experience and think that all the first part is still right and not wrong.

So, please,I want to be more clear and understand right all you have said, and want to know if you think that the first part is also wrong, or you only think that all the wrong is about the second part, I mean to know better, would you you had said the same things?

Thanks for the addendum and for the way to teach things in the right way and I want to learn, to do it right, so I will take your well done suggestions for making articles.

Quote
As far as I know this text is wrong written as it is not true for ALL the filters, as is not true that ALL the filters are resolution independent and that do not depend on any external bitmap, because there are lots of filters that depend on external images.


I agree that this is really wrong to put this, because I do not know how FF works really internally and how the bitmaps are treated, and thought that some filters depends on bitmaps but does not mean that internally it works in the same way. And I can not tell things that I am not sure about and can not teach something saying "as far as I know"
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Skybase
2D/3D Generalist

Posts: 2802
Filters: 67
I mean your whole premise starts with "How to use the Resolution Independence with FF and when is possible" which makes it seem like the feature was a choice you can turn on / off. FilterForge's method of calculating stuff doesn't change between texture generators and image effects. The only thing that's different is that you're feeding in a finite amount of information. But aside the fact about input imagery, all FF filters themselves are resolution independent.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8251
Filters: 33
Do everyone that works with FF knows exactly and very well how FF works inside?

Quote
Skybase

I mean your whole premise starts with "How to use the Resolution Independence with FF and when is possible" which makes it seem like the feature was a choice you can turn on / off.


Sorry that you find the title wrong, but I do not agree with you in that not everyone that is using FF is a FF guru and knows everything about FF and knows very well how it works, as already shown in some threads, many beginners do not know how to get the result they want according to the resolution and how to modify it to resize the result to whatever resolution you may want, and you can´t always do it directly (for example using FF as plugin) and also if you are you are using a effects filter and do not load the image source through a color control you can´t change the resolution as you want.

Quote
SKybase
FilterForge's method of calculating stuff doesn't change between texture generators and image effects. The only thing that's different is that you're feeding in a finite amount of information.


I agree that the inside engine and how FF makes the result image is always the same with all the filters, and does not change, BUT that result depends on the finite amount of information you are feeding to FF, I mean the resolution size.

I mean that this is like in a Strawberry Jam factory, they do not manufacture the jam for the size the of final bottle, they make a large amount of jam, and then at the end reduce the amount of jam that will fit inside the bottle. So Filter forge makes the filter always in the same resolution independent way, but then after have to modify the resolution to fit inside the given orders for the final resolution size, AND you can´t always change that information as you want.

I mean that even that FF inner working is always resolution independent and does not work with pixels as it happens with Photoshop or any other 2D software, BUT then after for showing and delivering the final result is limited by the information given for making the final result already given, and that you do not always can´t change as you want as it depends on how you are using FF

WHEN FF IS NOT RESOLUTION INDEPENDENT ACCORDING TO THE RESULT

Can you change the final result resolution as you want in ANY case, with ANY filter, and using FF as standalone or plugin? My answer is NO

1 - When using FF standalone and you are loading the main source image through the File-> New.. because once loaded this image, FF will make the final resolution size with exactly same size as the source and there is NO possible way to change it and modify the resolution output size if you want it bigger or smaller.

2 - When Using FF as a plugin instead of standalone, it will happen exactly the same as in point one as you load always the image through the main image, and the final result will always be exactly the same as the source image loaded from the host software.

Quote
Skybase

all FF filters themselves are resolution independent.


I agree that all the filters may be themselves resolution independent in how they are made and how FF makes the results and this is true, and that for making the filter effect does not depend on the pixels of the source, BUT I DO NOT AGREE that the final result of the filter is ALWAYS resolution independent because any filter follows the information given on the size resolution and if the resolution is given by the source image you can´t change it as you want.
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Skybase
2D/3D Generalist

Posts: 2802
Filters: 67
[Major Edit] I think I get what you mean but I'm a bit concerned about how you perceived the idea and also explained. I think it just needs a peer-reviewed rewrite.

http://www.filterforge.com/more/help/.../Size.html
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8251
Filters: 33
OH YES!! Thanks very much for helping understand and solve this topic

After all and thanks to your last link about the SIZE slider I finally have understood what you mean AND WHY is told that FF is always resolution independent

So the resolution independence of FF can be compared to what happens with the difference between bitmap graphics and vector graphics

FF Resolution Independent = Vector Graphics

Vector Graphics VS bitmap graphics

So then the problem is the definition of what resolution independence is and where you want to have it, so really there is 2 kind of resolution independence, one inside the filter and another for the output of the result.

In ALL this thread I have always been refering to the OUPUT resolution and NOT to the SIZE of the result inside the filter, BUT then I have mixed wrongly the concept when I have said that not all the filters are resolution independent

Sorry that I was wrong and confused, and now I agree that you are right and I have explained it wrong and can be confusing and have maybe used the wrong words to explain it and also mixed the concepts and that the output resolution is one thing and the internal resolution independence is another different thing.

Quote
Skybase

Kinda seems like you missed something about how the program works.

Do note: bitmap components do implicitly render internal images given certain operations are better calculated bitmap.


I now finally understand why you have said it was wrong and that have missed something in the way, and now I see that this is true and that there has been some misunderstanding from myself as I have been always refering to the resolution independence ONLY OF THE OUPUT RESULT and have missed totally that there is of course the main resolution independence INSIDE THE FILTER ITSELF and that you CAN resize and change the SIZE of the result of the filter without losing any quality as much as you want either up or down, so then I agree that ANY filter is really resolution independent considering this, and then AFTER all this result depends on the resolution size output.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8251
Filters: 33
Quote
Skybase

To be fair though, these little things you do are probably what's just keeping yourself afloat. You really do learn a thing or two just writing yourself stuff. I'm simply here being critical because you publicize your findings. I don't think anybody would want to learn the wrong thing.

I'm sometimes a guest speaker for various occasions with graphics and I often keep a couple tips:

1. Know what you're going to talk about. - Don't teach if you don't know, teach yourself then teach.

2. Assumptions shouldn't be taught.

3. You'll regret teaching the wrong thing. (It really sucks and I have my own stories about that)

4. Use appropriate wording. (That's like something I suffer).

5. People want to care, it's just that they care less when you write/speak carelessly.

6. There's no excuse for teaching the wrong information. <--- Life tip


Now after discovering what has been wrong in this thread I thanks you and appreciate more the very good and wise tips and suggestions you have made above and now I agree much more with you, and all the 6 points you have put are worthy and good to take BEFORE making something to help and teach others, and will be useful to have for making any future article and help thread

I think I will have to remake and rebuild this thread in the right way to avoid confusion and that it really is useful and can help somebody

Thanks very much for your help, your time, your knowledge, your patience and for keeping answering and helping me understand what was wrong in all this.

Sorry for the trouble I have made and will follow your tips and suggestions to avoid this again
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