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Those Noise Addicts!

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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

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This is a screenshot from Spiralgraphics Genetica 2.5 Pro, the Noise Lab to be precise. smile:D

Now these guys are seriously noise addicted! FF needs to get there too... smile:loveff:

--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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jffe
Posts: 2834
Filters: 90
Nice, and I agree. smile:)

jffe
Filter Forger
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James
James
Posts: 648
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Same i agree, i tried out the Genetica trial and it's a great program, with some more stuff FF will be a much better texture making app i think though, Actually the more generators the better i think smile;) Would be great to see some fractal based stuff also smile:)
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
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People will always want more, even when they already have what they ask smile:D Many of these generators can be easily made in the current version of Filter Forge:

3D Noise = Perlin + Result set to Surface
Broken Marble = ???
Bubbly Noise = ???
Cloth = not a noise at all
Clouds = Perlin with mapped inputs
Corroded Noise = Perlin + Noise Distortion + mapped inputs
Cracked Noise = ???
Cracks = Stones + Levels + Noise Distortion (maybe layered)
Craters = Perlin with a custom curve as a Profile
Curtain Hair = Perlin (vertical Angle, high Stretch) + Noise Distortion or Offset
Data Noise = see this
Distracted Vein = this over a Perlin with a custom Profile curve
Dots = Cells with Flat=on and Smooth=on + Levels
Drips = Perlin + Noise Distortion (or Offset)
Fluid Ridges = ??? (probably Refraction + Worley noises + custom Profiles)
Fractures = ??? (probably can be made with Cells + a custom Profile curve)
Growth Noise = ??? (can be imitated with Perlin + Checker + Blur + Tone Curve)
Kaleidoscope = not a noise at all, no comments
Layered Glass = Cells or Stones with Solid Fill = on
Marble Veins = Perlin + Tone Curve
Matrix Noise = doesn't look like a noise
Mosaic Noise = Tiles (Mortar Width mapped with Perlin)
Pattern = not a noise, can be made with Kaleidoscope
Plaid = not a noise, can be easily made via FF components
Plasma = Perlin with high Roughness and Contrast
Puff Cells = ??? (looks like distorted Perlin or Cells with a custom Profile)
Ridge Noise = ??? (looks like Perlin or Cells with a custom Profile)
Ripples = ???
Scratches = rotated Perlin + Levels
Sheet Noise = ??? (probably some heavily ToneCurve'd noise + Perlin-based grain)
Stained Glass = not a noise, no comments
Stone Noise = Perlin + custom Profiles + Noise Distortion or Refraction
Streak Noise = stretched & rotated Perlin + a couple of Noise Distortions
Swirl Noise = ???
Turbulence = ???
Vein Noise = Stones or Cells + custom Profile, maybe layered
Wood Noise = see this
ZigZags = not a noise, no comments
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
Posts: 3309
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When it comes to Noises, our approach is different from that of Genetica: instead of pre-made generators, we provide tools to make these generators. For example, have you tried the Profile input? You can make TONS of stuff using this with Perlin alone.
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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

Posts: 4360
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Quote
Vladimir Golovin wrote:
People will always want more, even when they already have what they ask smile:D


smile;)

Quote
Vladimir Golovin wrote:
instead of pre-made generators, we provide tools to make these generators.


The more generic FF approach certainly is the more flexible one and preferable over the -hey-lets-supply-a-thousand-presets-philosophy of Genetica, I agree.

However, when I was briefly looking over the Genetica Noise Lab, I found that sometimes its really handy to have more complex noise generators as a one-node thingy. Once we have 'subroutines' implemented though, I think the community will come up with many interesting noise generators ready to drag&drop. I am looking forward to what the FF team comes up with in this regard.

As for those evasive "???" noise types on your list, it might be a nice challenge to try and build those with the existing toolset.
--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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CFandM
ForgeSmith

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Quote
Vladimir Golovin wrote:
People will always want more, even when they already have what they ask smile:D Many of these generators can be easily made in the current version of Filter Forge:


I agree with this. Also these generators can be made with FF..I have been working on one of my own of sorts..Just check the last couple of filters that I had...
The name of this is the KT Method or generator...Its one filter that does a whole range of different tasks.
Stupid things happen to computers for stupid reasons at stupid times!
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Sethren
Posts: 12
I am a regular beta tester of genetica 2.5. Don't shoot me. smile;)
It would be nice to see an all in one noise generator made by various users here like Crapadilla said. I agree that some of these are not noises but rather types of patterns like the cloth pattern for example i use all of the time to make many types of fabrics and seeing something like this implimented into filter forge would be nice. Matrix Noise i agree is not a noise but rather a special effect that applies some wierd distortions to an already existing noise type. Stained Glass would always come in handy for variating colors and bumping effects from various noises. Don't get me wrong i do like filter forges approach of creating noises and i am rather dissapointed in genetica's lack of pixel depth and lighting. I think if the users can find ways of getting all of these patterns created then the more types of surfaces can be possible here.

I think ready to go Drag and Drop noise generators are a great idea. smile:)

I want to get back into beta testing filter forge and try to make these pattern types as well, i have been away for awhile and want to get back to using this wonderful software again.
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Vladimir Golovin
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Quote
Sethren wrote:
I am a regular beta tester of genetica 2.5.


Yep, I've also been a beta-tester of Genetica since its first beta (it was called Organica then).

Quote
Sethren wrote:
Don't shoot me. smile;)


Sethren, you're absolutely welcome on these forums smile:) I wish we had more people from Genetica, DarkTree, Allegorithmic and TextureMaker camps -- honest, factual comparisons and constructive critique are most welcome here.

Quote
Sethren wrote:
i am rather dissapointed in genetica's lack of pixel depth and lighting


Hmmm.... lack of pixel depth? Genetica does have bump/normals/shadows and therefore the pixel depth info, that's for sure. Or you're talking about the 'floating-pointness' of the pixel color data?
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Sethren
Posts: 12
Heh, heh, yes, i remember abit of Organica. I did have a chance to play with Genetica 1.0 and that is what had me facinated into the versions beyond.

I meant to say Genetica lacks anti-alias sampling. It only used 4 per sample were as Filter Forge uses what, 16? I inquired to the developers about this issue but they don't seem to get it, i could be wrong but usually when i make a hi-res texture i have to slightly blur it otherwise if one looks carefully there is a type of sub-pixel noise present. Lighting in terms of Multi-lights rather then a single directional light source.

I use Allegorithmic MaPZoneFREE v1.7 as well. It is rather slow and the UI is odd but the one element i do like about it is, it has a ton of noises and patterns to choose from so for me that comes in handy when trying to create unique surfaces. I usually mix many noises with layer blends and masks.

Had not touched Dark Tree yet, i don't own any 3D Rendering software but what i like about Dark Tree from what i had seen thus far is what could it not do?

I had used Texture Maker, there is alot you could do with it but sense it lacks layer blending i stayed away from it. It's noises are nice and additional effects are nice as well. No doubt it is certainly a intresting software.

One major element i like about Filter Forge is Nodes. I feel nodes just allow for so much freedom. The HDRI Lighting is just spectacular. It is amazing with the realism that image based lighting produces.
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James
James
Posts: 648
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Welcome Sethren, it was actually from the Genetica forums i found out about FF smile:D Maybe if you don't want to add lots of new modules, what im thinking is with my custom toolbox/library idea where you can drag grouped modules and add them to your collection, maybe you could have a folder called Generators ect filled with a load of these type of thing, would be great to be able to organize folders also so you could add a custom shapes, color effects ect It would be amazing, keep people that want new generators happy and just advance FF a huge amount in general.
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
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Quote
Sethren wrote:
I meant to say Genetica lacks anti-alias sampling. It only used 4 per sample were as Filter Forge uses what, 16?


Up to 65 samples per pixel, plus a smart algo that applies anti-aliasing only where necessary. smile:pimp:


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Vladimir Golovin
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Quote
Sethren wrote:
when i make a hi-res texture i have to slightly blur it


Ouch, that's brutal! To emulate 16-sample AA you can use the downsampling trick -- render the texture to a bitmap with target dimensions multiplied by two (say, for a 500x500 target texture you'll have to render in 1000x1000) then downsample it using any decent resizer (for example Photoshop's Image Size operation). Why multiply by two and not by four? That's because Genetica's AA (four samples per pixel) is already 'baked' into the image, so you'll need to multiply each dimension by two to get the number of 'samples' to 16.

(However, with Genetica's max resoluton limited to 3000x3000 pixels, this trick will work only for textures with dimensions of 1500x1500 pixels and smaller).

Or, if Genetica has a node allowing an offset operation with floating-point offset values (that is, subpixel shifts), you can put the subpixel offset just before the root node and render 4 variations of your texture shifted by amounts less than one pixel in various directions, then blend all the 4 results together to get an anti-aliased image.
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
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Quote
Sethren wrote:
I use Allegorithmic MaPZoneFREE v1.7 as well. It is rather slow and the UI is odd but the one element i do like about it is, it has a ton of noises and patterns


Yes, they have excellent bomber/sprayer tools. We'll definitely add particle placement components to Filter Forge (they didn't make it into 1.0 -- we haven't had enough time to implement and polish them).

Quote
Sethren wrote:
what i like about Dark Tree from what i had seen thus far is what could it not do?


Blur, sharpen, high pass, true seamless textures, speedy renders. The last one is perfectly reasonable since DarkTree renders three-dimensional procedurals, not bitmaps.
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James
James
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Quote
We'll definitely add particle placement components to Filter Forge


Nice, can't wait for that smile:D
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Sethren
Posts: 12
Drag and Drop Grouped moduals! Nice Idea indeed. smile:D

I could try that downsampling trick but i notice three issues here with Genetica. 1- It's preview window makes the texture look slightly altered to what it looks when done for final render and 2- The floating windows take to long to render for a preview and 3- Anything larger then 1024 especially with the complex textures i tend to do it takes to long to render. This becomes a great challenge for me when certain aspects of software are lacking in optimization, amount of options and ease of use. It's hard because my fortay is about photorealism with the work i do.

I requested that the limit of 3000 by 3000 goes beyond that but the render speed would have to be greatly increased.

Genetica does have move node but i think it moves only each per pixel and not sub-pixels. I'd have to inquire about this.

I know i exsagerated the use of Dark Tree abit. I admit to that. It does do alot especially in the noise department.

65 Samples! Yikes!

Particles? Did you say particles? Very nice. smile:)
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Vladimir Golovin
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Quote
Sethren wrote:
65 Samples! Yikes!


Frankly, that's way too much for the majority of cases. Currently I see more demand for AA kernels with the number of samples lower than five. We can't lower the number of samples further, so I guess we'll have to adjust sample weights to emulate such kernels (currently the weights of all samples in the kernel are equal).
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Sethren
Posts: 12
Would not 65 samples only be the case for very huge hi-res textures only?
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Vladimir Golovin
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Actually, the bigger the image, the less samples you need -- when you increase the number of pixels (with the image function unchanged), you effectively increase the number of samples you take -- you just don't average them together as AA does. In other words, with a large image, your original procedural 'signal' is captured using a larger number of samples than with a small image, and therefore requires less additional subpixel sampling.

Of course, some things will always require at least 5 samples per pixels (hard curved lines for example), but the general idea is that you need less samples on bigger images.
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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

Posts: 4360
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What do you guys think of turning the noise (pun not intended) into a little community project?

I am thinking of creating a kind of noise snippet collection, a Noise Lab, that collects and showcases useful generic noises one would often re-use, much like what you can see in the image in my first post. Instead of going hunting all over existing filters for noise examples, we would have a single location to come to.

As you can see below, I already started a little collection...



--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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angelboiii
maya dude
Posts: 107
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All that "noise preset" thingie could easily be solved with grouping of nodes and easy way of importing that group (thats the feature i miss the most..).. that way one could do 20 node group that would do exactly the same as one of the presets in Genetica and when needed you would just import it into your filter editor.. i often find myself doing same thing over and over again because of lack of that feature smile;)

Crapadilla: do share!!! smile:D
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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

Posts: 4360
Filters: 65
Quote
angelboiii wrote:
All that "noise preset" thingie could easily be solved with grouping of nodes and easy way of importing that group (thats the feature i miss the most..).. that way one could do 20 node group that would do exactly the same as one of the presets in Genetica and when needed you would just import it into your filter editor.. i often find myself doing same thing over and over again because of lack of that feature Wink


That's what I hope to do with the noise snippets. Once the "subroutine" feature arrives, the snippets would become quite useful.

Quote
angelboiii wrote:
Crapadilla: do share!!! Big grin


I'd certainly love to, but I shall wait and hear what everyone has to say on this before I clutter the snippet category with my submissions... smile:devil:
--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

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BE AWARE THAT THIS THREAD IS FROM 2006 and all the comments above must be taken thinking on what was available in 2006

This may be a thread from 2006, but is still very useful, interesting and still worthy in 2013

Found this thread thanks to the Crapadilla's Noise lab wiki

And now that I am investigating and learning more about noise components I think is great

Quote
Vladimir Golovin

When it comes to Noises, our approach is different from that of Genetica: instead of pre-made generators, we provide tools to make these generators. For example, have you tried the Profile input? You can make TONS of stuff using this with Perlin alone.


Yes, I agree much with this and I have just begun investigating about creating your own custom noises using the component noises with high pass, threshold, edge detector, curve components connected to profile, and other possible combination that will give lots of different noises, and now that in FF 4.0 there is the group component you can make your own personal and custom noise components, although the very bad thing is that you can't save this individual group components and load them in your filter, it must be saved as a filter, and you can't open two filters at the same time to copy from one to another or be able to load a filter and merge it's content with the actual filter.

Quote
Sethren

It would be nice to see an all in one noise generator made by various users here like Crapadilla said.


Yes, this' would be very good to have, I have been already to make something like this because I have not found any in the FF library or the forum, there is only isolated examples of noises but not a generator in itself, although it may be already available and I do not know it.

Quote
Sethren

Drag and Drop Grouped moduals! Nice Idea indeed.


YES!!! This would be really awesome to have specially now that you can create your own custom groups or modules, but it seems that we will have to wait one year more for this, as Vladimir have said that this will be only available in FF 5 .0 probably for end of 2014 or in 2015

Quote
Crapadilla

What do you guys think of turning the noise (pun not intended) into a little community project?

I am thinking of creating a kind of noise snippet collection, a Noise Lab, that collects and showcases useful generic noises one would often re-use, much like what you can see in the image in my first post. Instead of going hunting all over existing filters for noise examples, we would have a single location to come to.


This was in 2006, have this been done somewhere in the forum? This would be a great thing

Is perhaps this thread here the one that has been done?

noise Lab by Crapadilla and many others


Quote


Vladimir Golovin

Many of these generators can be easily made in the current version

3D Noise = Perlin + Result set to Surface
Broken Marble = ???
Bubbly Noise = ???
Cloth = not a noise at all
Clouds = Perlin with mapped inputs
Corroded Noise = Perlin + Noise Distortion + mapped inputs
Cracked Noise = ???
Cracks = Stones + Levels + Noise Distortion (maybe layered)
Craters = Perlin with a custom curve as a Profile
Curtain Hair = Perlin (vertical Angle, high Stretch) + Noise Distortion or Offset
Data Noise = see this
Distracted Vein = this over a Perlin with a custom Profile curve
Dots = Cells with Flat=on and Smooth=on + Levels
Drips = Perlin + Noise Distortion (or Offset)
Fluid Ridges = ??? (probably Refraction + Worley noises + custom Profiles)
Fractures = ??? (probably can be made with Cells + a custom Profile curve)
Growth Noise = ??? (can be imitated with Perlin + Checker + Blur + Tone Curve)
Kaleidoscope = not a noise at all, no comments
Layered Glass = Cells or Stones with Solid Fill = on
Marble Veins = Perlin + Tone Curve
Matrix Noise = doesn't look like a noise
Mosaic Noise = Tiles (Mortar Width mapped with Perlin)
Pattern = not a noise, can be made with Kaleidoscope
Plaid = not a noise, can be easily made via FF components
Plasma = Perlin with high Roughness and Contrast
Puff Cells = ??? (looks like distorted Perlin or Cells with a custom Profile)
Ridge Noise = ??? (looks like Perlin or Cells with a custom Profile)
Ripples = ???
Scratches = rotated Perlin + Levels
Sheet Noise = ??? (probably some heavily ToneCurve'd noise + Perlin-based grain)
Stained Glass = not a noise, no comments
Stone Noise = Perlin + custom Profiles + Noise Distortion or Refraction
Streak Noise = stretched & rotated Perlin + a couple of Noise Distortions
Swirl Noise = ???
Turbulence = ???
Vein Noise = Stones or Cells + custom Profile, maybe layered
Wood Noise = see this
ZigZags = not a noise, no comments


This is a very good and useful list as reference to make custom noises with the already available components
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