Bomber Question

When pluging in a component into the Background I expected it to be in the B/g not as the sreen shot shows

Yep thats what it was Thanks

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Crapadilla wrote: Stupid question

I see I've started the stupid questions thread LOL

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: Dilla, currently there's no Z-depth control. What uses would you have for it?

I'm thinking of the z-depth grayscale map as a way to directly influence the sorting/layering order of particles. Particles in black areas of this "z-depth map" would be "in the back" and those in white areas "in front".

I will post some examples of what I have in mind when I'm back from my vacation this weekend.

+1 sounds great.

What would be necessary here is the ability to assign a custom sorting/layering order via a map input -- in this case mapped with a linear black/white gradient (as seen below) -- which assigns a per-particle Z-depth value.

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: I'm afraid this would also require the ability to specify the origin or the pivot point per particle.

Hmmm... Why so? I'm not after changing particle position in the image coordinate space.

[Besides, how does the bomber know WHERE to place a particle if it doesn't already posess a pivot X/Y coordinate?]

Rather, I'd be interested to know how the depth sorting is executed: Does the bomber sort by particle ID? Something like this appears to be the case when one examines a single particle layer with a density of 2 or more. Obviously, the first particle drawn is the top-left-most and the last particle drawn is the bottom-right-most (see image below).

Couldn't this sorting be changed by reading a greyscale "depth" value from a map input?

Here's the filter... Note that I had to slice the heightmap into 7 layers and use 7 bombers to get there. Quite unwieldy!



Heightmap Bombing Test.ffxml

Yet another... since there are only 7 layers, the 'height-sorting' is far from perfect on this one.

Using V Chaos, things start falling apart. Sorting order hasn't changed, which is why mountains that have moved "up" in image coordinate space appear to be incorrectly depth-sorted.

So, the sorting appears to be hardwired to a "scanline" method, numbering particles from left to right, top row to bottom row.

Dilla, There are two big problems with direct z-depth controlling
The first one(technical):
rendering with z-depth ordering needs additional computations (i.e. array sorting, which is not very cheap anyway)
The second one (logical and UI):
The z-depth input needs a required input like refraction or heightmap inputs (guess why? )
So we want to introduce newbie-confusing, and speed-decreasing feature. Of course, such 'bad' input must be optional. But the infosructure for adjusting component inputs isn't ready yet.

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Crapadilla wrote: Again, if nothing is connected to the depth input, the Bomber could behave like it does now, couldn't it?

If we create z-depth input as non-required for mapping, z-depth slider will do NOTHING.
It's against the philosophy "You change it - you see the result"

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Egret wrote: "You change it - you see the result"

This is not the case with some existing controls. When the details slider is 0, the roughness slider does nothing. When the reflectivity slider is 0, the metallic slider does nothing. Same with the rotation control on the ellipse when the squash is 0.

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Crapadilla wrote: 'polymorphic' bomber

Combine LDR with HDR, and then have a separate zdepth bomber?

Uses:
-When objects are laid out on a map (like the mountain example)
-When objects are placed on top of each other (like stones on a riverbed)
-When objects come out from underneath others (like hair, fur or grass)

Thinking about some more applications for 'zdepth sorting'...

Imagine! We could plant some trees alongside ThreeDee's roads!

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Crapadilla wrote: Well, it will only do nothing if there's nothing connected to it! But you're right, I see your point now with the 'required input'.

A good solution would be to introduce a new kind of an input, a "mildly-required input", or a "map-only input", an idea somewhat similar to our existing required inputs.

Essentially, it will be a map-only input which, like a required input, doesn't have a control to adjust its value -- but it does have a map slot. When unconnected, it won't implicitly pass any 'warning sign' image as a substitute for a connected map, it will just do nothing.

Instead of the "Must Be Connected" text it will show a less annoying gray text like "Map-Only Input".

(Note to myself: if we implement such inputs, we should replace the "Must Be Connected" text with "Required Input" text, and correct the help page for required inputs accordingly. Map-Only Inputs would get their own help page.)

P.S. Don't interpret this as a promise

+1 to Z-depth grayscale map

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Crapadilla wrote: Just checking... is my z-depth bomber request still on the back of the devs' minds or has it been cast out into oblivion? I'm guessing 'low priority' and 'FF 4.0' here?

I'm looking at the first prototype right now

We've implemented the map-only input (a.k.a. "mildly-required input") I talked above, and it works great. The Z-order algo itself, on the other hand, could turn out to be problematic. The current implementation sorts particles only within octaves (particle layers), but the octaves themselves are sorted normally, that is according to the current setting of the Layer Order parameter.

Dmitry is currently working on cross-octave sorting, but from the look of his face, I don't think it's gonna be an easy ride.

Low priority, in this case, means "right now" -- we're waiting for the GUI guys to finalize the draggable window separators (which took A LOT longer than we expected), plus we have the map-only input implemented for another purpose, so why not?

If we manage to implement the cross-octave sorting, we'll release the new Bomber with FF3.0.

Dang, I had hoped to see the prototype in beta stage 3.

Go, Dmitri, go!

Now we will have to see how you Crapadilla are going to use the new "depth map" and I think and suposse that you may already have plans for this new implemented feature.

I am glad that you are very happy with this