Upcoming EULA changes, round 3

Hey John, currently, there are no usage restrictions on them.....so you can do anything you want with any result generated from any FF filter. This string is dicussing the implementation of a new EULA that will restrict usage of un-altared filter results......meaning that users will have to have some creative input on them......or permission from the author to use them as-is from the filter.....

Steve
I know that it is being dicussed for the future but I don't want to upset anyone by using their filters if they don't think it suitable, whether EULA or not.
John

***cough*** (((I'm the only one who believes this would work???))) ***cough***

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StevieJ wrote: I was wondering what you thought about my idea for FF to sell "image result" copyright texture packages seperately from the program??? I believe that this would help diffuse the texture "hijackings" on top of implementing the new EULA..... I was also thinking that FF and authors would jointly benefit from some kind of author royalty program.....similar to the system employed by Fred (Sign Guy)..... Taking this one step further.....maybe give authors a texture "storefront" as a further reward level.....where authors can create and sell their own texture packages with copyrights (which would finally be tangible under the new EULA).....all on a royalty basis through FF..... I think something like this would add a whole new dimension of incentives for texture submissions.....bringing in waves of new authors, drastically increasing texture submissions, and increasing texture quality by giving authors added incentive to create filters that people would want to purchase the result copyrights..... Further, I think something like this is now needed because the easy variant and "built-upon" existing filter concepts are clearly getting "super-saturated", it's getting harder to achieve HU ranks without alot of extra work beyond the "time-is-money" formula to justify it, and I think the number of filters are now deterring alot of potential authors from even trying with all the easiest concepts being more than thoroughly covered in the library..... This program has the potential to be continuously flooded with new authors and new filter concepts....but it's not.....and kinda feels like it has been stagnating here lately (probably due in part to the ongoing "result/preset" copyright issue behind this string). Therefore, I think that some other "incentive" formula is going to be needed in order to bring in new talented authors, get "cutting-edge" new concept submissions, and keep talented authors making quality filters here after they have achieved the program rewards...... I would think that authors would put alot more thought and work into their filters if there was a "money-making" incentive in place here. I, for one, would put alot more thought into my own continued submissions.....because as it stands for me, I've got multiple lifetime rewards and I'm submitting just as a leisure fun/passtime/hobby type of thing.....so I'm not about to spend an inordinate amount of time on a filter unless it's something that I need for my own work.....and I don't submit anything but snippets from those..... So, in conclusion .....I think the combination of this new EULA (giving authors tangible copyrights) and my "storefront" reward level idea (giving authors a place to sell their copyrights) would provide the most beneficial "symbiotic" relationship for both Filter Forge and its' authors.....

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Sign Guy wrote: The actual return on the average image offered into the commercial marketplace is a lot less than you might imagine.

Oh, I know.....but some pocket change is better incentive than nothing at all.....

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Sign Guy wrote: Those that do better than others only do so because they spend 40% or more of gross revenues on advertising and marketing.

Well, under my idea, authors would not have to re-invest 40% of anything except some time setting up their "storefront" offerings.....and FF would be their marketing and advertising medium.....

I think that FF does not want to get into any enhanced licensing or royalty program.....but with the way things are going here, I think they'll realize that they are going to have to be a little more progressive about it.....

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Sign Guy wrote: One way FF could go would be to develop their own in-house filter authoring department instead of relying on the creative community. That's what pretty much every competitive product does.

FF could very well decide to go that way when the library reaches a certain point.....but I hope it doesn't.....which is part of the reason why I'm suggesting alternatives to salvage and continuously grow a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship between authors and FF.....and subsequently why I would like to see author's result copyrights protected and a means (reward level) for authors to take advantage of it.....

That went full-circle, eh???

Nope.....I didn't receive it.....probably because I'm kinda considered a "Rebel Without A Clause" who doesn't play well with others..... LOL.....

Hey, where's that new EULA??? I've got tons of textures that I want to submit!!!

My take on the offer, taking into consideration the extended holiday discount offer as well, is that, like our economy, an economic stimulus package is needed.

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Sign Guy wrote: My take on the offer, taking into consideration the extended holiday discount offer as well, is that, like our economy, an economic stimulus package is needed.

Yeah, me too.....the 30% Holiday Discount made me think that all was not well with FF sales.....

Some "front-end" sales tactics is a good thing.....but I think that providing incentives to bring in waves of new authors and creating a thriving community here would work much better for exposure, marketing, and creating a "buzz" around this program for sales.....

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Kraellin wrote: i'm not really posting much here until vlad comes back with something about the new eula. it's pretty much all moot until then.

I think Vlad has been here and is reading this stuff.....but not posting. I hope I'm wrong.....but I'm kinda getting the feeling that there is some "hesitance" about implementing this new EULA......

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Sign Guy wrote: I can understand not wanting to encumber the EULA in as harsh a way as Vlad proposed.

That's what I'm thinking that he is thinking.... LOL.....

I can't stress enough that putting this new EULA in place is by far the best way to go with all of this. It would only negetively effect those users who are waiting to copy and resell straight results from new texture filters.....which is totally negligible in relation to where I think FF wants to go with this program.....

To be brutally honest about it.....since this issue has come up, authors have all but stopped submitting quality texture filters. If other authors feel anything like I do.....they don't want to submit any quality texture filters just to see the straight results quick-copied and resold as someone else's work.....which undermines the authors intent in submitting them.....while also undermining the sales of this program.....

Vlad, please don't take any offense to anything I say.....because the intent of my opinions and suggestions here is to see this program be successful, grow, and enhance for my own use.....

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Sign Guy wrote: One doesn't have any restrictions with Genetica, Alien Skin and others. So it isn't expected with FF either.

That's true.....but I think that can be used in a positive way to differenciate this program and make it more successful to those other programs.....by catering to a thriving and growing community of authors with incentives to set up shop and continuously contribute here.....

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Sign Guy wrote: If they authored their own filters, they would not, IMHO, choose to encumber the product with a restrictive EULA.

I don't think that's true. I think these strings have clearly shown that the majority of contributors here want the restictions of this new EULA.....and it's pretty obvious that no restrictions on result copying and reselling has completely stagnated filter submissions here.....

IMO, the FF-author relationship is what has grown and has proven to be successful with this program.....but as the library has continued to grow, the author incentives need to grow with it to keep it going. The only logical next step for FF to go with this is to make author copyrights tangible so that they can sell them through FF.....

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Sign Guy wrote: The middle ground is to find a solution which doesn't encumber the product and does create better incentives for the artists.

It just doesn't make any sense to me for FF not to implement these restrictions just because some might be bummed out that they can't quick-copy and resell straight results anymore. I don't think that consideration even comes close to the need of fostering the author-FF relationship.....which is vital to the success of this program.....and strongly growing it from the inside out.....

The program rewards incentive is slowly but surely being exhausted.....there's no incentives for good authors to continue to stay on here.....and there is no place else to go with this other than providing means for authors to make money off of them.....

Thanks for answering my question.....

I wish that I could convince you to take a more progressive approach to fostering the FF-author relationship.....because I'm willing to bet that author contribution activity directly reflects sales of this program.....but I'm really hoping that I'm wrong about that.....

Yeah, that pretty much covers the reasons why we stay on here.....

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Kraellin wrote: mild competition

I'm in it to be Dilla's arch nemisis of the "properly constructed filter"..... ..... LOL.....

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Kraellin wrote: i still enjoy getting an HU, but that and four bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but not much else

LOL.... Well, that's exactly what I would like to see changed about it.....

We make up the "FF out-of-the-kindness-of-our-hearts Guild".....

I'm still waiting for my FF fruit basket..... .....

So true.....

I was just thinking (yep, I can do that sometimes ).....for example, you achieve my suggested "storefront" reward level.....you sell a texture package (result copyrights) to a texture filter for $5.00.....for each one sold, FF gets $4.00 and you get $1.00......100 sales means $400.00 to FF and $100.00 to you.....which would certainly work as dual incentives for both FF and authors.....and more than justify the new EULA and the "storefront" reward level at the same time.....

a four to one split? i dont think so. 50/50 sounds a lot more reasonable.

I know, I know.....work with me.....can't even get FF to implement the new EULA.....let alone to think about a royalty program.....but I'm trying..... LOL.....

Red, you're alive!!! Great to see ya!!!

I am doing a student teaching internship so I am around, just don't have much acess to internet, but I am around soaking in all of the good filters and publishing some crappy ones of my own at the same time

***cough**** eh ehhhrrrrrmmmmmmmm ***cough***

Hey Craig and Fred, what do you guys think about this idea???

http://www.filterforge.com/forum/read...ssage48459

.....then maybe FF wouldn't have any reservations about implementing this new EULA on the proprietary versions, eh???

I'm betting that you will.....

I think there is still some hope.....

LOL, even my dinky little roofing tile texture already made it to the renderosity marketplace - in it's default format!!! It took what, couple of weeks. Sheesh!
[link removed by Moderator]

That pretty much confirms what I felt before, I don't think I'll be submitting any textures as long as this is not resolved. I'll keep them to myself and sell the images. At least mine will be a tad more original.

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StevieJ wrote: Solution = New EULA + Royalty-Based Texture Result Storefronts For Authors.....

----I dunno, it all still hinges on 'are you gonna pay for a lawyer to chase down thieves?', cause there will be thieves, regardless of any Eula. Unless FF is ha-ha, and I mean that in a polite yet get-real kind of way. You wanna make some real rent money, get with Fred, or someone like him, someone who already has the path paved. I've said it before, and I'll say it again (being FF's top skeptic, or dang close) if Fred's numbers were better, I'd have signed some stuff with him last fall, and he's probably still the best/easiest game we all know of. *shrug*

jffe

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StevieJ wrote: I don't like that either..... Sad Solution = New EULA + Royalty-Based Texture Result Storefronts For Authors..... Wink

100% agree, or as I suggested a month ago, do the stuff yourselves :

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Frank2 wrote: 2. 'I do want to sell my presets' Fine, grab yourself a cheap website, put thumbnails of your stuff on, link them to watermarked 800x600s or something and then go here : http://www.e-junkie.com/ They will do the rest for you (I can vouch for that one, used them on an unrelated project) starts at $5 or $10 a month. You could be good to go in a day. 3. 'I do want to sell my presets on the same site as other Filter Forge Filter writers.' Not a problem. As I noted that right Fred said, "Administration is not a problem". Quite right. Get a few of you together, get website and then, for example, go here : http://www.make-a-store.com/site/cate...t_Software There are plenty of others on the Net. Useful thing this 'Internet', good for finding things...like independence, etc. See? wasn't that easy? You get access to the actual figures that way. Not that anyone ever messed around with royalty figures, you understand.

Either way, the new EULA is essential. Steve, have you spoken to Vlad about all this? Taking a damn long time, I reckon.

The lack of advertising of FilterForge on the Net concerns me, as well. I don't mean paid advertising, I mean, why are FF not hitting the graphics forums, pro graphic sites and blogs? I'm just not seeing it around. This is still a new product and a very good one, it needs pushing for the word to go around.

BTW Steve, do me a favour? when you speak to Vlad, can you ask him to stop moving half my damn filters to some vague dumping ground, called, 'My Filters'? I have to remember all these (along with Flaming Pear ones and many others) so that I can instantly decide which filter to use when I'm working on a job. Moving them, is 'not helpful', haha