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Kraellin
Kraellin
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i've no idea what filter you're talking about   If wishes were horses... there'd be a whole lot of horse crap to clean up!
Craig |
| Posted: February 25, 2007 11:21 am |
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StevieJ
Designer/Artist
Posts: 11264
Filters: 163
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LOL.... Yeah, I must have been mistaken    LOL.... Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :) |
| Posted: February 25, 2007 11:27 am |
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jffe
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----It's not like filters are "worth" anything outside the program, and they're not really worth anything inside-the-program except a free copy of the program, and/or bragging rights at most anyways. Like Kraellin said, "the bottom line on protection and protecting your filter is, if you dont want it copied, dont submit it."
----I see filters all the time that I could make slight improvements to, and vice versa I'm sure, but what's the point really, wouldn't that time be better spent just messing around from scratch ? I know that's a lot funner for me personally, and if it's not for someone else, well, they can do whatever ya know.
jffe Filter Forger |
| Posted: February 25, 2007 1:07 pm |
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Fluxtah
Ian Warwick
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Well, theres improving someones filter or sending them a message or commment or suggestion on how it could be improved, the latter is the honourable option  |
| Posted: February 25, 2007 2:25 pm |
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John Michaud
Student
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Well im pretty late to the party on this one, But i can honestly say if someone took one of my filters and made it better, then they fully deserve the credit for the improvements. I mean yeah, it sucks when you see a blatant rip-off and not even any credit to the author but thats just how some people roll.
Thankfully society finds a way to deal with these situations. All our filters are judged by usage and by the "coolness" quotient. IF your impostor did nothing to elevate the quality of your filter to such a level that we, the end user, feel that downloading their version over yours is warranted, you have nothing to worry about
And since i know your probably way over this StevieJ, i think this statement is to anyone else that falls victim to "admirers"
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| Posted: February 27, 2007 2:18 pm |
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StevieJ
Designer/Artist
Posts: 11264
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Hey John, great avatar
Yeah, I had those feelings a long long time ago when I was first starting out.....about two weeks ago Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :) |
| Posted: February 27, 2007 4:08 pm |
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John Michaud
Student
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Hehe, thanks. The source image is kinda scary tho.
Oh what i do for a laugh sometimes  |
| Posted: February 27, 2007 5:02 pm |
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voldemort
voldemort
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All I can add to this is that sometimes the scope of FF comes into play quite often Ill think I arrived at something original and post it only to find out a month later that someone had allready done one very similar well before me
Ive had the reverse happen as well --someone submits a filter and later notices I had allready done one along those lines
Cross pollination is inevitable to some extent
Ill be frank sometimes I look at a filter someone else has done and see how I would go about doing it myself --if its different and or bettern in any way Ill submit it
Some of my filters I simply submit so that others can use them as examples
Most of theese though I go ahead and catagorize as snippets
Ill admit Ive sometimes realized I forgot to mention a source of instpiration or a snippet I borrowed from
And to all those that feel I have slighted them in any way I appologize now..
I really should go back through all my filters and see where I have done this
But let me bring up a point someone else here allredy did
I have no problem with someone taking my crude efforts and spiceing them up
I look at it from the perspective of ---well their improvements probably make it better for the end user
And at least for me thats what matters that someone somewhere got some use out of it
I dont car if Voldemort shows up anywhere in the filter or not just so long as it helps someone
My hats off to many of you though --to many to list some of the ideas I have seen here are incredibly clever  lets all whine for a wine port |
| Posted: May 15, 2007 2:33 pm |
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ScaryKitty
This is as Normal as I get...
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Vladimir Golovin wrote:
ssamm wrote:
Secondly -- there's like 1500 filters already so the probability of earning discounts is already pretty slim...
No it isn't. Quantity doesn't matter. |
Quantity doesn't matter, but visibility does, yes? If there are only 30 filters, it will be easier to pick out the good stuff vs. wading through 1500 of the things. Maybe some interesting filters get overlooked in the bewildering crowd.
On the other hand, there are more people around looking, so, who knows...?
By the way, this happened to me. It was very obvious a clone: the person didn't change the control names or even the starting colour/texture parameters on the presets! Just a minor tweak to change the shape. If they had credited me and/or had seemed to be trying to improve my filter, that would be cool, but there was no credit, and I don't think I'm being arrogant here in saying that my presets still looked better. I told FF about the problem, and they fixed it right away. I was impressed and gratified.
Yeah, FF is open, and I do think that's good, but I, at least, have my limits. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but it really frosts my shorts when someone just steals -- without so much as a "thanks for the idea" -- something that took me days to work out on my own. 
Ahem. Of course, it's entirely possible that I'm over-sensitive. 
As many here have said, there will always be stealing. For the "free" software, for glory, for attention, out of ignorance or thoughtlessness, or whatever. I think if the original creators just keep an eye out, shouldn't be too much of a problem (there's always the submission date in the original creator's favour). At this point, anyway, I think self-policing is the best way to go. Kat
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"Listen, gotta dash, things happening. Well, four things. Well, four things and a lizard." -The Doctor
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| Posted: May 18, 2007 10:23 pm |
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jffe
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ScaryKitty wrote:
I told FF about the problem, and they fixed it right away. I was impressed and gratified. |
----Huh, I noticed the grand total filter count went backwards by a few the other day, is that what you are referring to ?
----What's kind of ironic and sucks (although it probably wouldn't/won't happen much in reality) is that when FF gets cracked, some people will make filters for it, and be unable to up them to the library. I suppose they could grab the demo, and post them that way, but yeah, not super realistic. Although the concept of someone who uses warez making filters, let alone filters that would be worth mentioning, is about as likely as getting struck by lightning.
jffe Filter Forger
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| Posted: May 18, 2007 10:43 pm |
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Kraellin
Kraellin
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and i'll add that, if anyone ever finds one of my filters where i've used someone else's filter or parts of a filter and not given credit for it, PLEASE, let me know and i'll correct it at once! i DO use other filters in some of mine. so, just let me know if i've forgotten to hand out the kudos where they rightfully belong.
and likewise, please let me know if someone is blatantly ripping off something i've done without giving credit.
we shld also all be aware of 'concurrent creation/design'. this is where one person makes something and someone else makes almost exactly the same thing. the two have no knowledge of what the other one is doing; they simply have both come up with the exact or nearly exact same thing, simultaneously. it does happen. If wishes were horses... there'd be a whole lot of horse crap to clean up!
Craig |
| Posted: May 19, 2007 12:50 pm |
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CFandM
ForgeSmith
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Kraellin wrote:
and i'll add that, if anyone ever finds one of my filters where i've used someone else's filter or parts of a filter and not given credit for it, PLEASE, let me know and i'll correct it at once! i DO use other filters in some of mine. so, just let me know if i've forgotten to hand out the kudos where they rightfully belong. |
Then I'll add a little more to that, "DITTO"..
When I get in my crazy swirley pattern mode I use plenty of snippets never filters thou.. I try to list all that I use but sometime I might not catch them all.... Stupid things happen to computers for stupid reasons at stupid times!
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 1:15 pm |
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StevieJ
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ScaryKitty wrote:
For the "free" software, for glory, for attention, out of ignorance or thoughtlessness, or whatever |
Exactly!!! .....and there's always going to be someone trying to find a shortcut to "beat" the system.....
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ScaryKitty wrote:
it really frosts my shorts when someone just steals -- without so much as a "thanks for the idea" -- something that took me days to work out on my own. |
Mine too!!!
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ScaryKitty wrote:
I told FF about the problem, and they fixed it right away. I was impressed and gratified. |
Very glad to hear that you did that!!! .....and very glad to hear that FF did something about it!!!
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ScaryKitty wrote:
I think self-policing is the best way to go. |
I think you are right about that.....because it would be extremely difficult for the FF submission person to check out all of the other the filters each time one is submitted...... Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :)
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 4:11 pm |
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jffe
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Why would anyone care really ? I mean I guess they could add a control to yours, change the presets and get a free copy faster than you if people liked it more, but is that really happening ? It's been said time & again, if ya don't want yer filter "stolen", then don't upload it to the library to begin with. *shrug*
jffe Filter Forger |
| Posted: May 19, 2007 4:28 pm |
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StevieJ
Designer/Artist
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jffe wrote:
I mean I guess they could add a control to yours, change the presets and get a free copy faster than you if people liked it more, but is that really happening ? |
Yup, alot recently.....
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jffe wrote:
It's been said time & again, if ya don't want yer filter "stolen", then don't upload it to the library to begin with. *shrug* |
I have to agree to dissagree with you about that one I think that FF's primary draw and return to authors is based on promotion, recognition, and showcasing creativity and intellectual property.....which becomes undermined and diluted when someone clones it. Clones take alot of attention and use away from the original.....which may have achieved high usage and rewarded the author for their hard work if cloned filters had not distracted users away from it.....
Personally, it gives me great pleasure to create them, use them in my work, share them with other users, hear how much someone likes my work, and engage the challenge of achieving rewards.....because it tells me how good my work really is. I'll be damned if I have to feel like not submitting anything just because it is the only way to keep cloners from piggy-backing on my efforts and intellectual property.....and I'm quite sure that FF doesn't want authors to feel that way either.....
I can't imagine that you would have been too happy if I had submitted an alternate version of your "Metal Melt" the day after you submitted it LOL.....
I never thought this string would become so infamous when I first posted it  LOL.....
Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :)
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 6:14 pm |
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jffe
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StevieJ wrote:
I can't imagine that you would have been too happy if I had submitted an alternate version of your "Metal Melt" the day after you submitted it LOL..... |
----I'm sure I've been "cloned" before, but I don't look that closesly and don't care. 1) For the same reason I rarely look inside filters, because FF is about exploring the whole thing to me, hell, I rarely use the filters, I just make them and move on. And 2) I had about 50 filters up before the final beta expired anyways, I more or less knew it would be but a matter of time til I earned a free copy, and then the point becomes moot.
----If someone plans to just make 3 filters and wander off hoping they earn a free copy, and they get ripped off by someone else taking their exact filter and changing one bit out of it, then I guess they got "cheated" somehow. But it ain't being policed that closely, and rather than play cop, I'd rather do what I do, make more mediocre filters ha-ha.
jffe
Filter Forger
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 6:59 pm |
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jffe
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StevieJ wrote:
I'll be damned if I have to feel like not submitting anything just because it is the only way to keep cloners from piggy-backing on my efforts and intellectual property.....and I'm quite sure that FF doesn't want authors to feel that way either..... |
----I don't imagine FF wants that, but the truth is, it has happened, will happen more, and needs to happen. It's very much a personal decision, do you care if you get ripped off, and if you do, then it is up to you and you alone, to protect your interests. And the #1 way to do that, is to not release anything online yourself, sell/license it to someone else or some company, get paid up front, and move on and never look back.
----The whole of the internet is like this, it's not just FF. I sometimes give myself ulcers policing youtoob and various other sites to keep a fraction of my sh*t off of them, but it does no good really. In the end, I'd have been better off not ever putting it online, and maybe not doing it for that matter. FF was cracked a while ago, people are not only using your filters, they stole them from FF, (Or they will when someone zips up all the FF library and posts it as a torrent, then it will be downloaded and zipped with the cracked version of FF, and anyone who steals FF also gets everything we've all done. Same as they do with Reaktor, and any number of other programs.), it cannot be helped, you either ignore it, minimize it when possible, or stay home, do nothing, and avoid feeling cheated if that's a problem for you personally. Sorry to sound "harsh", but these are the cold hard digital facts of life in these modern times etc.
jffe
Filter Forger
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 7:08 pm |
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StevieJ
Designer/Artist
Posts: 11264
Filters: 163
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Can't get more honest than that!!! Well, between our two interprations and approaches, I guess it boils down to how each author feels about it.....
.....and the hell you say.....I wouldn't call "Metal Melt" a mediocre filter.....sacrelige!!! LOL..... Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :) |
| Posted: May 19, 2007 7:21 pm |
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CFandM
ForgeSmith
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Well, I guess I don't have to put my whole 2 cents in since jffe sumed it up nicely..
Stupid things happen to computers for stupid reasons at stupid times! |
| Posted: May 19, 2007 7:39 pm |
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jffe
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ScaryKitty wrote:
Quantity doesn't matter, but visibility does, yes? If there are only 30 filters, it will be easier to pick out the good stuff vs. wading through 1500 of the things. Maybe some interesting filters get overlooked in the bewildering crowd. |
----Want more frontpage views ? When you make a filter, and it's all done and perfect, that can be version 3 (or 4 or 10, you get the idea), remove something from it, there's an *update*, remove something else and there's another update. Do it as many times as you want/can, and you can get that same filter, on the frontpage a bunch of times. Time it right, and you can be up over the weekend even. But the sheer number of downloads doesn't help popularity-wise anyhow, (unless I'm wrong, I was to believe that popularity is ranked by actual usage no ?), so it's really all for naught in a way. I just kind of fail to see the point though, people will find what filters they want, just make sure you use good descriptive keywords, and make good preset examples, and ya shouldn't have much trouble getting your filters noticed to some degree. Just saying. *shrug*
jffe Filter Forger
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 8:31 pm |
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jffe
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StevieJ wrote:
Can't get more honest than that!!! Well, between our two interprations and approaches, I guess it boils down to how each author feels about it.....
.....and the hell you say.....I wouldn't call "Metal Melt" a mediocre filter.....sacrelige!!! LOL..... |
----Well, I'm not known for kissing much butt on forums ha-ha, and I'm not interested in argue-ing emotionally, or trying to force my view on the world, I just call'em as I've seen'em.
----Metal Melt isn't that great, it's maybe 2% clever internally, and mostly luck, plus it's really pretty simplistic. The "monster" filters I've made that look as cool as some of CF's and volde's, take like 10 minutes to render a preview of, then another 10 for anti-aliasing or whatever, and there's no way I'm gonna bother with those. If anything, I'd like more efficiency in my designs, but when yer just farting around plugging modules in semi-randomly, like I do, then yer not super likely to get from point a to point b all that rapidly ha-ha.
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CFandM wrote:
Well, I guess I don't have to put my whole 2 cents in since jffe sumed it up nicely.. |
----Thanks. Just trying to get to the point, and maybe let some people know (again, or for the first time) how it still is. I wish copyright laws were different in a thousand different ways, some better for end users, and some better for content creators, but none of that matters, what matters is knowing/realizing how it *is* currently, and how it isn't, currently, at ground level in the real world.
jffe
Filter Forger
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 8:37 pm |
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StevieJ
Designer/Artist
Posts: 11264
Filters: 163
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Well, none of that is news to me..... I just don't think that because it can't be helped out there.....that it should be used as rationale to allow it in here where it can be helped.....or feel less pride and care in it because they are just going to be stolen in the end anyway. Sorry, I just can't go along with that line of thinking.....
Still friends??? LOL.....
Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :) |
| Posted: May 19, 2007 9:36 pm |
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jffe
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StevieJ wrote:
Still friends??? LOL..... |
----Yeah, no worries. I just can't see caring myself because I've already done the math, been there, etc. I've made whatever point I had, I'll let the discussion carry on for those who wish to take this route without further interuption eh.
jffe
Filter Forger
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 10:12 pm |
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StevieJ
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jffe wrote:
I just can't see caring myself because I've already done the math, been there, etc. |
I hear ya.....I ignore the math alot.....sometimes to my own detriment
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jffe wrote:
I'll let the discussion carry on for those who wish to take this route without further interuption eh. |
+2 RIP Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :)
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| Posted: May 19, 2007 10:21 pm |
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Kraellin
Kraellin
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wow, jffe, what an apathetic cynicism you've got going there and i'm not trying to rip you or anything; i'm just somewhat amazed. that view basically says we shld all lie down and let the world run over us... or that it already has and that we cant do anything about it or shld even try, that everyone is a crook and that there is really no reason to live cause we'll just get betrayed, robbed, and run over. and, i find that very sad.
now, i'm no ball of sweetness and light, all sugar-coated that can only see the 'dream' of it all. i've had my share of being ripped up and down, been through a war, and seen some really nasty crap in my time. the trick is to not agree with it, to not let it spoil all life everywhere, especially within oneself. and to just go 'it's all pointless, why bother' is doing just that.
i've seen some of your filters. you have some talent, some creativity. that is worth standing up for. the world doesnt always recognize this, but it is. and if i didnt believe that, i'd just lay down now and not get up. it is a crime that artists get targetted by those with no talent and who only have ill-will for everyone around them and seek to minimize others in any way possible. you could likely sort through your life and find those individuals who've tried to run you down and find certain characteristics about them and realize them for what they are. you might even find some relief in doing so.
you're not alone and everyone hasnt given up. you deal in beauty and creativity. your ill-will counterparts deal in ugliness and destruction, your destruction. i'd prefer they not win. If wishes were horses... there'd be a whole lot of horse crap to clean up!
Craig |
| Posted: May 20, 2007 1:37 am |
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jffe
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Kraellin wrote:
that view basically says we shld all lie down and let the world run over us... or that it already has and that we cant do anything about it or shld even try, that everyone is a crook and that there is really no reason to live cause we'll just get betrayed, robbed, and run over. and, i find that very sad. |
----I wasn't supposed to talk in this thread anymore, so umm, don't tell Stevie I was here o.k.
----All I really meant was, trying to protect something that you simply can't protect in any real way, and that has no real-world value anyways, (The courts don't recognize software eulas as being "the law" in any real way as far as stealing software/digital files for personal use, only for bootlegging cases, and in the case of music mp3s/the RIAA, ie = sharing stolen or copyrighted files being illegal and punishable.), is a losing game. I have some intellectual property, and it gets around online, (and it is usually not paid for in those cases), but I've learned over time, that those people who steal stuff, were never going to buy it anyways. I guess, if I am *apathetic*, it's more in the direction of, I am apathetic to people trying to "steal" what I have given away. And meanwhile, I just try to make better judgement calls about what I want to give away, so that I dont have to feel anything about what other peole do after the fact.
----And lastly, I was only trying to contribute in ways that I thought people might find more useful than just knee jerk emotional repsonses. Not that that's all I've seen around here by any means, just after seeing a few, I wanted to point some more real world facts out, so that maybe some people can better come to terms with what the situation(s) really are ya know. People should do whatever they would like to do as far as giving things away or selling them, but it does not pay to be ignorant of how the real world is working, especially if it can work against your intentions. I don't mean to bring anyone down, quite the opposite, I'm hoping to save a few people some pain, since they have expressed a concern about copyrights and stolen intellectual properties. Would it be inappropriate to put a smiley at the end here, just to show I'm not kidding, I really am just trying to be helpful ?
jffe
(Sorry Stevie, anyone should feel free to message/email me if they would like, rather than posting replies to what I've said here and bothering others. Or maybe better yet, just ignore me if that's easier.)
Filter Forger
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| Posted: May 20, 2007 2:29 am |
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ssamm
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I can appreciate jffe's view. The fact is that ideas with filters can easily be stolen.
So far I haven't seen anyone mention any specific cases (and actually I haven't noticed any cases myself). I was thinking that if people did bring them to light when it occurred, then this might deter people from submitting filter clones without giving proper acknowledgments -- as people don't usually want to look like a schmuck.
I guess one problem here, though, may be that if you complain about a filter clone others might think of you as, I don't know, maybe arrogant or something. But maybe there's a way to express your thoughts objectively so that the cloner can give their side of the story -- as maybe it wasn't intentional, or maybe they'll even agree and update their description, giving you credit or something?
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| Posted: May 20, 2007 7:24 am |
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StevieJ
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jffe wrote:
----I wasn't supposed to talk in this thread anymore, so umm, don't tell Stevie I was here o.k. |
Too late, I've seen it LOL....
I think that all views expressed here have validity.....because no one's opinion can be right without making someone else's opinion wrong.....and it's all "true" to how each of us feels about it. Christ, I'm starting to sound like "Dr. Phil" or something LOL.... Someone please stop me!!! LOL.....
Anywho, bottom line.....I want to take pride in everything I do.....no matter if it is in vaine or not.....which is a personal and emotional mind set that blocks out reality so you can feel good about everything you have done at the end of each day.....kinda like a janitor taking pride in cleaning floors while knowing that his hard work will be destroyed by people who will never appreciate it.....
My work is done here.....
Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :)
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| Posted: May 20, 2007 11:24 am |
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ScaryKitty
This is as Normal as I get...
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jffe wrote:
But the sheer number of downloads doesn't help popularity-wise anyhow, (unless I'm wrong, I was to believe that popularity is ranked by actual usage no ?), so it's really all for naught in a way. |
Yeah...I sort of misunderstood how that worked. Oops! ^_^;;
About plagiarism: I have to side with StevieJ and Kraellin, philosophically. If you don't care if people clone your filters without acknowledgment, well, cool! I often wish I could be that easy about things, but the fact is that I'm not. When I put a lot of work into something, I get a bit possessive, and I've never had any respect for people who don't do their own work but claim the credit.
All that said, I never said that FF should get paranoid, as a community. Each author will have a different opinion of and approach to idea-thieves. If an author cares, she cares -- if she doesn't, she doesn't. It's all good. But saying that someone who cares is uptight and naive, or that someone who doesn't care is apathetic and cynical, seems counterproductive to me. I'd rather make pretty filters and ooh and aaah over other people's pretty filters.
We're all doing the same thing, in the end. All friends, yes? Kat
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"Listen, gotta dash, things happening. Well, four things. Well, four things and a lizard." -The Doctor
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| Posted: May 20, 2007 11:27 am |
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StevieJ
Designer/Artist
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| Posted: May 20, 2007 11:49 am |
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CFandM
ForgeSmith
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StevieJ wrote:
Okay, on a much more important matter.....whose butt do I have to kiss around here to get an "Editor's Pick" Big grin LOL..... J/K Smile |
Still don't know that one...
Ok everyone gather around the monitors its group hug...
Maybe not...  Stupid things happen to computers for stupid reasons at stupid times!
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| Posted: May 20, 2007 7:06 pm |
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ScaryKitty
This is as Normal as I get...
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Ah, group hugs are okay.
I'm just pleased to see that FF really does have a pretty tight core community that is really interested in the program and the creativity and not in little flame wars or something. At least as far as I've seen.  Kat
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"Listen, gotta dash, things happening. Well, four things. Well, four things and a lizard." -The Doctor |
| Posted: May 21, 2007 10:28 am |
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ScaryKitty
This is as Normal as I get...
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| Posted: May 21, 2007 10:32 am |
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StevieJ
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CFandM wrote:
Still don't know that one... |
LOL.... "It's good to be the king" eh??? LOL.... ( Mel Brooks) | Quote |
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CFandM wrote:
Ok everyone gather around the monitors its group hug...
Maybe not... |
Not such a bad idea in spirit..... Hehe..... We'll have to have a "Psychology behind FF Filtermaking"....."Filtermakers Intervention Hotline".....and "Filtermaker Therapy" strings..... LOL.... | Quote |
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ScaryKitty wrote:
I'm just pleased to see that FF really does have a pretty tight core community that is really interested in the program and the creativity and not in little flame wars or something. At least as far as I've seen. |
+2 True artists are known to get a little tempermental about infringement
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ScaryKitty wrote:
You buying the beer? I'll take a Fat Tire, please... |
Yeah, go run up a huge tab at your local pub and tell them that I'm paying for it Hehehe..... Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :)
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| Posted: May 21, 2007 10:49 am |
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ScaryKitty
This is as Normal as I get...
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Okay, I'm going to show my ignorance here, but I rarely post to forums and never do chat, so I'm not sure what "+2" means. Kind of like "Me too" or something? Kat
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"Listen, gotta dash, things happening. Well, four things. Well, four things and a lizard." -The Doctor
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| Posted: May 21, 2007 11:05 am |
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StevieJ
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ScaryKitty wrote:
"+2" means. Kind of like "Me too" or something? |
Yup, means in total agreement with you.....and I am Steve
"Buzzards gotta eat...same as worms..." - Clint :)
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| Posted: May 21, 2007 11:16 am |
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