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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

Posts: 4365
Filters: 65
To me, this appears to be a very interesting fact about a filter that deserves its place on the filter details page. Since all the preset images are rendered on Filter Forge Inc. machines anyway, the relevant data should already be there by now, or it could be collected in the future. Also, components and their combinations can be somewhat categorized for rendering performance (as seen in the Optimizing Filters for Speed thread).

Apart from this being very helpful info for filter users, it could also be used to detect likely candidates for optimization (i.e. when a filter deviates enough from the statistical average).

Any thoughts? smile:)
--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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jffe
Posts: 2869
Filters: 90
Overall that's not a bad idea. Some people won't care, and others will. The only real downside would be it could deter people from even downloading the filter in the first place, ie = not wanting to waste a lot of time on a slow rendering filter ya know.

jffe
Filter Forger
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uberzev
not lyftzev

Posts: 1890
Filters: 36
oh yeah, that would be awesome.
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
Posts: 3446
Filters: 55
Yes, we considered that. The benefits are obvious, but the task isn't as simple as it sounds. For example, the time measurement must be taken multiple times to compensate for possible interventions from the OS (like disk swapping). Also, we would need a separate server for this, because measuring rendering time on a server busy with Filter Library requests is not a good idea.
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
Posts: 3446
Filters: 55
Quote
jffe wrote:
The only real downside would be it could deter people from even downloading the filter in the first place


That's not a downside, quite the opposite smile;)
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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

Posts: 4365
Filters: 65
For me, an important question is: When is a filter fast enough? What is a good ratio between visual complexity and rendering performance? This is especially interesting for textures, since these tend to be more visually complex than effects.

Looking at the visually complex, high-detail textures on the library, some would certainly be categorized as slow performers. However, their visual appeal might make render-time considerations largely irrelevant. You might just need a few of these rendered out, so you don't care: you're going all out high-detail. Where do you draw the line? And what do we desire for the filter library?

It's really a dilemma. On my last filter I tested both a low and high global detail version. Just removing a highpass brought down rendertimes a minute on the low and 2.5 minutes on the high detail one. Visually, however, removing the highpass turned out to be smile:puke:.

Since its about visuals, I certainly would submit the slow version, not the one that's been gutted for performance.
--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
Posts: 3446
Filters: 55
Quote
Crapadilla wrote:
For me, an important question is: When is a filter fast enough?


For example, a filter can be considered fast if its rendering time is lower than the average rendering time across all filters in the Library.
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jffe
Posts: 2869
Filters: 90
I put a switch on one or two of mine, for low/high quality, so people could get a preview faster and get an idea of what it looked like, (basically just on/off remapped for roughness/details set from zero, to normal, on a couple of noise modules). That might be something for you to do also Crapa. smile:)

jffe
Filter Forger
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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

Posts: 4365
Filters: 65
Quote
jffe wrote:
basically just on/off remapped for roughness/details set from zero, to normal, on a couple of noise modules


Yeah, I've begun introducing 'Global Detail' sliders into my slower filters, which allow turning all the noises down to zero detail. It certainly helps...
--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

Posts: 4365
Filters: 65
Quote
Vladimir Golovin wrote:
For example, a filter can be considered fast if its rendering time is lower than the average rendering time across all filters in the Library.


And can you enlighten us as to what this average rendering time currently is? smile;)
--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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Crapadilla
lvl 52 Filter Weaver and Official "Filter Forge Seer"

Posts: 4365
Filters: 65
Quote
Vladimir Golovin wrote:
That [it could deter people from even downloading the filter in the first place] is not a downside, quite the opposite Wink


Should I interpret this as meaning "We don't want any slow rendering filters on the library"?
--- Crapadilla says: "Damn you, stupid redundant feature requests!" ;)
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
Posts: 3446
Filters: 55
No, I'd say "We want slow filters only if they do something really useful or cool-looking. We don't want filters that take hours to produce obvious things that can be easily made in Photoshop."
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 12302
Filters: 35
Quote
Crapadilla wrote in 2007:

To me, this appears to be a very interesting fact about a filter that deserves its place on the filter details page.

Since all the preset images are rendered on Filter Forge Inc. machines anyway, the relevant data should already be there by now, or it could be collected in the future. Also, components and their combinations can be somewhat categorized for rendering performance (as seen in the Optimizing Filters for Speed thread).

Apart from this being very helpful info for filter users, it could also be used to detect likely candidates for optimization (i.e. when a filter deviates enough from the statistical average).


I agree also that this appears to be a very interesting fact that is missing on the filters detail page.

And as is said very well by Crapadilla, this could ALSO be used the detect SLOW filters and they could be likely candidates for optimization by the masters and experts of Filter Forge and be able to make them better.

Quote
Vladimir Golovin wrote in 2007:

Yes, we considered that. The benefits are obvious, but the task isn't as simple as it sounds. For example, the time measurement must be taken multiple times to compensate for possible interventions from the OS (like disk swapping).

Also, we would need a separate server for this, because measuring rendering time on a server busy with Filter Library requests is not a good idea.


Yes I agree and understand also that one thing is to suggest a thing, and then find the way to implement and make it. And can not be so easy as it may be thought.

Quote
Crapadilla wrote in 2007:

For me, an important question is:

When is a filter fast enough?

What is a good ratio between visual complexity and rendering performance?


This is especially interesting for textures, since these tend to be more visually complex than effects.


YES !!!! As you say this is a very important question and a good to answer, but is not as easy as it could be as it depends on the computer you are using and how fast is it AND also very important to value how fast is a filter is to see WHICH RESOLUTION you are going to use, because it can be fast at 600x600 but slow at 3000x3000
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