Upcoming EULA changes, round 3

Well, I know that I have been a little "strong" in my opposition to some of your opinions......so I appologize for my part in making you feel unwelcome. Your opinion has definitely illicited some good and thorough discussion on this issue.....

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Sign Guy wrote: Sounds a lot like what I proposed as either a dual library or enhanced licensing ... after which I was personally attacked, quoted out of context, and made to feel generally unwelcome.

Fred, we just have to get over it There's not going to be dual library, enhanced licesing or author chosen optional conditions - I tried hard, and presented many arguments in that direction, but thats just not how Vlad and the majority wants it it seems..

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Kraellin wrote: i think one viable alternative is another of fred's ideas; start a filter forge author's consortium. you wouldnt even submit filters to the library. you'd submit them tot he consortium and the consortium would handle the distribution and sale of textures and filters. FF would still win since filters and textures would be being bought and used and there would be some overflow of folks buying textures also buying the program. authors would win because they'd be being compensated for their good work. and the end users would win because they'd get a high quality filter or texture. the current library wouldnt need to be revised. the eula wouldnt even need to be revised. and the current FF library would be used by up and coming authors wanting some free advertising or a free program. the hard part is getting someone to run an FF author's consortium. but, i'm guessing it could be a lucrative enterprise.

While I would likely be a frequent customer, I think the key to its success would be Filter Forge's attitude towards it.

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jffe wrote: ather than lie, Vlad chooses to ignore the underlying problem, simply that FF is not going to enforce any of the Eula terms beyond an email or possibly a letter/fax to the offending party or website selling their warez.

So what if they don't do any nore then send out a cease and desist notice? That's what most companies do unless the losses are worth a lawsuit.
Unless there's a huge dipute over rights, most compamies do honor cease and desist notices. Espacially online marketplaces, if they by accident or due to not knowing didn't notice copyright violations.

You keep talking about lawsuits, while lawsuits are the least likely outcome, and most extreme cases.

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Conniekat8 wrote: If filter makers start getting a lot of inquiry's for texture reselling rights, at some point they may get more interested in consolidating and concentrating license managing efforts. Personally managing rights to 3-5 filters, no biggie. If it got to 300 filterts per filter maker, very different story.

Administration is not a problem. If a consortium were to form, I will be happy to contribute the software used to run my individual image ecommerce site, Express Clipart, and the name of the programmer who could adapt the code to the need. It already keeps track of the sales of almost 17,000 images (substitute filters), generates royalty reports for each artist (currently more than 100), creates thumbnails and display images, provides for selling of different versions of the same displayed item, provides for keyword searching and advanced searching, and interfaces to your favorite merchant services provider.

The adaptation would be relatively simple.

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Kraellin wrote: you tempt me strangely, fred.

Not my intention. The real difficulty would be in assembling a group who understand good filter making, who can agree on a lot of details, and who are all willing to put in the time it would take to do it well.

My point is that, technically, it is quite doable. My offer will remain open pretty much indefinitely.

Did I mention the web application also presents a license during checkout which must be accepted to continue? Simple matter to add additional license versions and link them to radio selection buttons on the item detail pages.

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Kraellin wrote: ok, i dont get it. if you've got the software, got the shop already in existence and have the talent yourself, why not just run this for filter makers yourself?

1. As a texture publisher, I think some would see a conflict of interest. The operators of this kind of enterprise must command the trust and respect of the filter artists.
2. The beauty of Filter Forge is the diversity of talent. When one person runs anything, you just get that one person's vision ... for better or for worse.
3. I am at an age where a long term project like this is not a great idea.
4. I happen to believe that if it was run by the filter artists, for the benefit of the filter artists, it would be the best possible way to do it.

As I stated in an earlier post, I am willing to contribute, without compensation, any ideas or insights a group might want to know of. I know and understand the business and organizational side of this kind of project very well.

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jffe wrote: the underlying problem, simply that FF is not going to enforce any of the Eula terms beyond an email or possibly a letter/fax to the offending party or website selling their warez.

That's exactly right.....this new EULA will make it the author's responsibility to protect them.....and FF will only protect its' program code.....

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Rawn (RawArt) wrote: watermark the images on the site to prevent this type of farming, which actually does impede sales of their software.

Yeah, watermarking would be going too far.....and impede sales of the program.....

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Sign Guy wrote: generates royalty reports for each artist

Fred, I like the way you have this set up.....and I think FF and it's authors would benefit from something similar.....with FF selling texture results/packages and giving percent royalties back to authors.....which would surely increase texture submissions and their quality here.....

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Kraellin wrote: fred, fair enough and thanks. how do you pay your artists, paypal? and is that generated automatically by the software as well?

In the U.S., we manually issue a check and mail it. Outside the U.S., we pay via PayPal.

Sales and royalty reports are generated by artist by time period one at a time. Reports can be exported as various data types which we usually bring into MS Excel. It would probably also work with QuickBooks but we've never explored that.

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Rawn (RawArt) wrote: more widespread than that of people who actually buy the software and simply use presets (which seems to be a big complaint for some reason). Maybe FF can do something to watermark the images on the site to prevent this type of farming, which actually does impede sales of their software.

Yeah, I'd be all for that.
Frankly, I automatically assumed that the images on the website itself are copyrighted, it never even crossed my mind someone would claim the should be able to use them.
LOL, I feel like I'm being really naive here thinking people would see that as automatic LOL.

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StevieJ wrote: Quote jffe wrote: the underlying problem, simply that FF is not going to enforce any of the Eula terms beyond an email or possibly a letter/fax to the offending party or website selling their warez. That's exactly right.....this new EULA will make it the author's responsibility to protect them.....and FF will only protect its' program code.....

----Great, so I submit a filter that FF gives away to thousands and thousands of thieves, in order for FF to help sell their own program, and all I "get", is to try to protect it myself. Wow, some incentive ha-ha.

jffe

Another issue that kind of comes up is, what country/countries laws is the FF Eula even based on ? They are incorporated in Virginia, but based in Russia I believe, and most likely want to sell to U.S. and European customers I would imagine. So to really remain "popular" in a way, they would want to go with the most lenient laws, and do the least to hassle paying customers. On the other hand, then people in the U.S. who are used to VERY restrictive copyright and usage laws, are going to shy away more, knowing they won't be as protected in other countries. It's really a no-win situation, and even if FF had a full-time lawyer on and to try and shut down each thief on renderosity or wherever, that lawyer would never stop 1/1000th of them.

Personally, I've already learned these lessons in other areas, and have made my choices about what I gave up, so I'm not too concerned for myself, I just hate all the b.s. doubletalk and false security of a Eula that won't be recognized in a court in any country were someone to want to reclaim something they weren't clearly told they were giving up to begin with. As it is, the current Eula is as good as any (since none of them hold up in court unless you have Microsoft money to bully the system into listening to you) I'd just prefer it were stated clear as day. Basically, any filter you submit, and anything rendered from it, is public domain as far as reality goes. A person could download the FF demo, and render out every texture in the trial period time, and be within their legal rights. And again, unless FF, or crapa or whomever, is going to sue some nearly impossible to find screenname/forum id making $50 a month off their graphics on renderosity or wherever, (which they aren't, ever, because there's no money in it), then copyrights and all that talk, is just talk, and worth nothing to anyone.

jffe

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jffe wrote: So to really remain "popular" in a way, they would want to go with the most lenient laws,

Do you mean China?

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Rawn (RawArt) wrote: Maybe FF can do something to watermark the images on the site

Perhaps the trial version should have watermark for anything saved

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CFandM wrote: Quote jffe wrote: So to really remain "popular" in a way, they would want to go with the most lenient laws, Do you mean China?

----Well, if anyone in China bought legit software, then yes. Personally I'm considering switching over to Euros for online payments, since they are worth well more than dollars and rising fairly steadily lately.

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Frank2 wrote: 4. 'I am jffe, what should I do?' Take an anti-depressant, damn quick

----The drugs don't work, or rather they only work on people who never cared to begin with. You can have laws all day, but I can also show you lawbreakers all day, then all night, then every day for the rest of your life. I'm just trying to help spread some reality around, sorry if it's not always rainbows & disney on ice eh.

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Frank2 wrote: you should have seen the stuff that I'd edited out of this post.

----Touche, but, you should read the posts I scrap entirely ha-ha.

jffe

Okay, I'm confused. I saw someone over at Renderosity using this package to create textures. That's what drove me here. I'm a texture artist and a digital scrapbooker. I *CRAVE* new things that I can play with to make textures for both of my "businesses." I also don't know jack and squat about making my own filters and had a look at the filter editor and got myself so lost I spent an hour trying to figure out who I am. (Okay, so I'm exaggerating, but I got so lost trying to make a simple shiny tile thing, that I just about threw my computer across the room!)

I have spent the last couple of days playing with filters from the gallery and made some really cool textures. Ones that I know I will use in both my scrapbooking products (Which sell for a grand whopping $2.50 - $5.00 a set!) and my Poser texturing.

I'm assuming that I'm not allowed to package and sell any tiles I create with FF? Even if I spend hours playing with sliders and colors and tweaking the heck out of the filter to make what I want. (I'm good at that. LOL I love playing and getting cool results. If I could do what you creators do, I'd be in heaven! And....well, I wouldn't need a "filter gallery" to pick from because I could do it myself!) It's not like I'm taking a factory preset, saving it and saying "Lookie at what I did." I was up till 4:30 in the morning addicted to playing with stuff and out of every 10 things I did I saved *MAYBE* one of them. Wrong colors, wrong design, wrong everything. LOL There's a lot you can tweak in most of these and trust me, us texture designers do NOT make a lot of money. I do it for the fun of it. (And us scrapbook designers make even less. I made a whole $8.00 last month from scrapbooking!) I have other filters, Blade Pro, Eye Candy, Dream Suite and none of them restrict what I do with the files I create by using the filters. (At least not to my knowledge, so please correct me if I'm wrong.) I know with presets for say, Blade Pro, the creators say yes or no to commercial use.

So, is it the factory presets that are the issue that people are re-selling or is it *ANY* file output, no matter how different it looks from a factory preset?

I would love to use FF to create textures that I could sell in a package in my store. It's a big reason why I want to purchase FF. That would help offset the cost of the program for me. Even the $99 basic edition version is a steep price for someone who makes just over that a month on a "hobby."

Now, I am assuming that I can viably use the textures that I create from FF to create clothing textures. (I.E. I can make a camo texture and apply it to a template for say a pair of pants. Add seams, buttons, pockets, patches, holes, etc.) I'm assuming that's a reasonable use, although, now I'm confused as hell to figure out the proper credit. I'm the last person in the universe that wants to get into trouble for copyright infringement. I have a 4+ year history in the Poser industry and don't want to tarnish it because I'm confused.

I really don't want to create havoc or get flamed for anything I've said. I'm just trying to understand what I can and cannot do with FF before I make the decision to go ahead and make a steep purchase for a hobby that's increasingly costly to maintain.

Edited - Because I remembered something else.

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is kinda like Spiral Graphics - Genetica.

This is directly from the Genetica EULA


4. Ownership of Preset Graphics. A number of ready-made graphic images ("Presets") may come included in the Software, which are and will remain the property of Spiral Graphics Inc. You may freely use, modify, copy, and distribute Presets.

5. Ownership of Developed Graphics. You retain ownership of any graphic images and graphic files that you develop using the Software. You may freely use, modify, copy, and distribute the images and files that you develop using the Software.


That's pretty standard for most filters that I own.

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Conniekat8 wrote: Frankly, I automatically assumed that the images on the website itself are copyrighted, it never even crossed my mind someone would claim the should be able to use them.

Me too! I was surprised when the other topic appeared, it´s a pretty basic assumption that website graphics are not up for grabs, unless stated otherwise. But then I started thinking... nowadays there are more and more websites just for the sake of sharing free graphics. So people that are not in the graphic industry might not know the difference.

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jffe wrote: it's not always rainbows & disney on ice

ROTFL That cracked me up! But even Disney isn´t Disney!

I´m not sure if you´re a realist or a pessimist, but anti-depressants are the kiss of death for an artist!

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Genie wrote: The best way to insure that you don´t do anything wrong is to contact FF. You might get some misinformation or get even more confused around here! Wink

Yep always the best bet is to contact FF directly that way you hear it straight from the source...Without opinions and possible sometimes unintentional misinformation..

creative.chaos, if you´re having trouble figuring out how to make your own filters, here´s a great place to start:

http://www.filterforge.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

It will help you get started.

Okay, I'll definitly contact FF and find out what I'm allowed to do and what I'm not. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I did make one filter. LOL Not good, made retro-ish squares. Will take a look at those links. Thanks. Not that I think I'll be any good at it...but ya never know. I could surprise myself, eh?

Okay. That makes sense. I saw the chain mail one and fell in love with it, but, like you said, noticed that not a whole lot can be done to change how it looks.

Now, using that as an example, I could use that filter to make a texture, apply it to a texture map using say, leather materials, seams, snaps, studs, etc to make an outfit and that would be acceptable.

Now, there's a really nice camo one out there that I made probably 50 different textures that look nothing like any of the factory presets. *THOSE* would be okay to sell because they're original and different?

I'm still confused and believe me, I wish I could wrap my head around the whole thing. As a texture artist and a scrapbook designer I *WANT* the options that are available in FF. But, if I can't use it for making textures for my work, then what good does it do me? Ya know?

I'm sorry if I'm a pain in the ass. I just want to know as much as humanly possible before I make such a big purchase. I know what you mean about hobby stuff. I spend thousands on my hobbies every year and they get more and more expensive. My next major purchase is going to be a digital SLR 10+ MP camera for photographing texture stuff...So, I'm going to be dumping 12-1500 into a camera. Not that it won't be handy for other stuff as well, but it's still a major purchase for a "hobby."

And yea, I'd like to use Maya or C4D too, but can't justify the cost. It was hard enough justifying Photoshop (and that's version 7 that I bought while I was in school for graphic design! LOL)

Thanks Carl. That makes sense.

As I said, it's a big purchase, so I want to know what I can be able to do with it in the future. If it's a simple "Hey, can I use your filter to make textures to sell?" thing, I'm TOTALLY buying it! I'm in love with half of the filters in the library. (OMG Do you know what I can do with that coffee stain filter in scrapbooking! LOL and OOOOOOOOO Leather and chainmail! My Victoria 4 characters are gonna look great in those LOL (It's a Poser thing, for those who don't know V4)

Sigh....unfortunately, I eat, sleep, and breathe what I do. Sad but true...I actually had a dream last night that I got lost in FF trying to figure out how to make my own filters.

Sad little woman I am LOL