Learning to create filters understanding how to combine components

One year ago I made already this other thread

How do you know what components to choose to do what you want in FF ?

And the help given there was helpful and useful, now I make this other one more specific

I have also been searching on the forums and Wiki and have made this other thread that is a compilation of useful threads I have found

Guide to new Beginner´s LEARNING making FF filters and tutorials

All the FF Help manual guide is very good BUT this ONLY describes and shows WHAT is a component, I mean what it is for, BUT that not show HOW TO USE IT, I mean how to combine it with other related components. The FF Help Guide is like someone explaining all the things you could find in a supermarket or in tools hardware (not the computer one) shop BUT does not tell HOW to use them and how to combine them to be able to do the work you would want to do. This is why there are books about cooking that will give you recipes and show you how to combine the elements to get, and what goes well with this or that ingredients.

Or maybe a better a more clear example and more scientific could be the chemical elements table, I mean that you could learn WHAT each of chemical element is and what it could be used for, BUT then after you need to learn HOW to combine all these different elements to be able to get what you want, and know what to use and what not to use, and with what things you can experiment and expect to have a positive result for the thing you want.


I have been trying much to learn more and understand and know HOW to use and combine all the many available components inside FF Editor, and I have been able to learn some parts and made some filters BUT there are some parts that I have not yet been able to learn and have not found any information about it in the fórum or Wiki pages.

As I see it there is no real guidelines, and a clear way to learn how to do the things and learn to combine and use the different FF components, it is totally up to you to find the way to learn searching the forum, wiki, and opening other filters to see how they are done, or maybe find somne of the few video tutorials available.

INFORMATION TO LEARN ABOUT THE FOLLOWING TOPICS

For example, I have been long time searching for information about this topics below and have not found any answers either in forums, wiki or help pages.


1 - HOW the bomber Works?

1 - I mean how to control and customize the distribution of the particles output and how to attach components to the chances to get the result you may want, I know that the chances with put particles in the black areas or gray but will not put any particles on white areas

2 - and what is the depth sorting for,and how to use it?

3 - and how does the chances work?, I mean how is choosen a specific particle of the 5 available to be shown instead of another? Why does it appear the first particle instead of the third of the input sources? Is this a random thing or is following some kind of pattern?

4 - BOMBER IS POWER, when connecting different components or group of components to tis bomber, but there is no real guide and tutorial on HOW to get the most of this powerful and hugely potential component?, I mean what components could be attached to this component to get what you want.



2 -LOOK UP AND ELEVATION GRADIENT

How the Lookup and Elevation Gradient Works?, I have tried to understand and know how to use this myself, as I have seen how it has been used very well in some filters, for example the Mondrian or Hexagon Parade, and I would like to be able to learn to use this with other things, but have not figured out what is the secret behind this, I know that is something about the gradient but do not know to use it myself



3 - CURVES COMPONENTS

How to use the powerful CURVES components to modify other components output and get interesting and useful things done with all these components, and when is needed and convenient to use them?



4 - MATH COMPONENTS

How to use the MATH components for a good thing and when is needed and convenient to use them?


5 - CHANNELS COMPONENTS

HOW TO USE THE CHANNELS components?
Why is good to use these components sometimes to get what you want?


6 - THRESHOLD secrets - I have seen that this component can be used in many different ways to get differet results and can be used for different things, but only know the basic and more obvious use of this component, but not the other many possible uses this can have


7 - LOOPS - How to get the most from it and how to use for different things, as this is surely powerful and has a huge potential, but is not easy to understand HOW to use it, and how to combine the different loops slaves components with the filters components, what can be iterated and what not?

NO LEARNING WEBSITES AVAILABLE FOR FF

I already know about SEVEN websites that their business is to teach other people how to use all the many software available on the market

I would surely PAY for learning about flter forge IF there could be some website with learning courses, but regretably there are none yet.

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So ok, I'll include some more bits and pieces of that into the tutorial I was starting up on.

Speaking of basics, one of the key concepts to be explained is "size", meaning the x/y anchor on components, and the coordinate system. There is an explanation in the FF help, but one would grasp the concepts better if it was presented visually. If you have no plans or time to do this, I could come up with something.

Is the FF wiki right place to do this? Can I alter the wiki with the normal forum user privileges?

I also have a couple of tricks for the bomber I could share.

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Yuya What you're probably most troubled by isn't necessary "connection" but rather the fundamentals of FF. Stuff like "what's making it all work?" If you understand that, then you should figure the rest out. Although in your case, maybe you need a bit more helping hand.

Yes, I agree with you, and is right that I need to know the fundamentals of FF and HOW ALL the things work inside FF. I have already learned many things and know how to use many of the components, BUT still have some problems with the ones shown on the first post

Although as you say, even understanding all the fundamentals, it will need also more help on how to make it work in that why and what to use.

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Yuya Some of the things you've mentioned above = jumping the gun. You're thinking ahead of your own skill level and you need back track to some of the basics. It should be mentioned that you don't necessary need to use math components, channels, and loops to do most of the things. And just to exemplify that, a lot of what I naturally do hardly use math and loop components. I do use channels though.

Of course that you do not need to use ALL the above components in the SAME filter, and I have put all of these ones because are the ones that I still have not found information about them in the wiki or forum that explains how to use them in the best way.

It is the same that you will NOT use all the chemical components to make a formulae, BUT you need to know which ones will be good to have for the formulae you want to make and what reactions will make when combining them. The same is with FF components to get a filter.

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Yuya In the end, you're really just over-loading yourself with information. Start small, grow big. Don't let all this technicality eat you away. FilterForge fr om the ground up wasn't designed with intense technicality in mind. It's definitely on the extremely user friendly side of things and I'm pretty sure what you're being confused by is actually something more simple than you think.

Yes, I know I must start to learn to walk, then walk faster, and then learn to run, but the problem is that there is no index or guidance on how this can be done.

Although I know what you mean that I should not try to make anything complex until I can make anything simple first.

I agree that FF is very user friendly, and in fact fr om all the node based software I have tried (four) FF is the best one and easiest to understand and work with.

I am confused because as you say I do not know the WORKFLOW of how to combine the needed components to make the final filter as I want it, and know what I should use considering what I want to get.

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what's a program you know so well that you can smoothly operate without thinking?

OH YES! Photoshop!! I have been using this since 16 years ago and I can surely use it very well without any problem, without confusion and knowing exactly what I need to do to get what I want, although in all these years I had not motivation to learn many of the other photoshop things like templates, actions, scripts, configurable panels, styles creation.....

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Yuya How did you learn that program and why?

Well I needed to learn this because I was interested in digital art, but then after in 1999 I got a work in a real estate wh ere I had to make all the graphical part of the promotions and photos of the properties and the advertisements, so I needed to learn to use Photoshop.

How did I learn it? Well it was easy, as there has been always LOTS of books available to be able to learn it that I have bought, and also there is a VERY HUGE amount of tutorials and information all over the internet since many years ago, and also there is already many teaching websites wh ere you can learn how to use it.

Nothing of this is available for filter forge, only on the filter forge website and forum.

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Nothing of this is available for filter forge, only on the filter forge website and forum.

Right, one of the things to note about a lot of these "programming-technical" pieces of software is that they typically don't have specific tutorials on something. In general, there are basic tutorials that run you through basic ideas, but nothing that drills you down where you need to.

There's a reason for this. The thing to understand in regard to programming software is that a lot of things are "case by case" meaning the user's desires and end goals do have a substantial effect on the method you produce something. For example, if I want to detect shapes within an image, I'll have to figure out a shape-recognition algorithm. However, I might want additional information like the specific type of shape: whether if its organic or not... so on. These specifics result in specific algorithms being utilized to create one desired product.

Programs like Photoshop are kinda easier to write on given the nature of what people do with it. It's easier to deploy "tips and tricks" for programs that have a typical end goal, where as in FilterForge, things get more and more situational. Depending on what you look out for, you do end up having to come up with different ways of interpreting data and processing it. In other words, unlike Photoshop, FilterForge (and programs alike) have more variability in what tools you choose.

Tutorials are extremely hard to write on with programs like these. I can show you several methods for doing 1 simple thing, but in the end you have to choose which methods to go by based on what you want. In the end snippets don't always fit your dream filter, and not everything we give out as tutorials, snippets, examples don't necessarily suit what you're going for. UNLESS, you're just sticking snippets back to back.

In a sense when I began making tutorials for FilterForge, I realized that making specific "lets build this" tutorials don't entirely prepare you for the real scope of the program's capabilities and often fail to teach the real deal. Often, people ask "how do you do this? and that?" and they get answers... but people realize that after exhausting questions for 2 or 3 years (or shorter) they realize that somethings are best done by themselves.

It's a long-winded answer to your question, but effectively that's part of the reason. You've basically been claiming for several years now that you just can't find tutorials. But in a sense, you really really gotta change your mindset to really understand FilterForge (and tools alike). You'll really start seeing "the gold mine" I'm talking about.

Some filter authors have posted "learning" filters, the purpose of which is merely to provide something for beginners to experiment with. Example: LEARNING I - First Steps by Alzhem. I haven't yet found a series by any one author, but I think the idea itself is good.

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Is the FF wiki right place to do this? Can I alter the wiki with the normal forum user privileges?

The wiki is the preferred way to do this, and yes, you can edit the wiki.

just in case you missed, i have video tutorials here : http://www.geekatplay.com/filterforge.php

Time for Geekatplay to update.

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Or also time that you could do the second part of your very well done Loops tutorial smile;) smile:D

lol fiiinnnnee I'll add that to the list of stuff to do this year.

But sir, in the end, you're still asking a bunch of basic questions, and you're still troubled by the really basic elements of FF. How is watching an "intermediate level loops video tutorial" going to help you? -- I already assume people who watch my loops video tutorial understand FilterForge, and the next video tutorial would assume you understand the basic workings of loops on top of that.

lol as much as you may be just joking around, I thought I'd leave you that thought.

I guess people who watch video tutorials aren't always just looking for answers, but more like inspiration. Maybe that's just another way of putting it.

Please, is there possible any updated to FF 4.0 help and learning to be added to this thread or any possible source from any other website that could cover this topics on the first post?

Thanks for any possible help

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Have you ever picked up an organic chemistry book...

Oh god. Your point gets across, but 99% ee of readers here are thinking:
HELL NO I HAVEN'T!

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The wiki is the preferred way to do this

And MediaWiki makes editing supposedly easy. But I suppose there's no one in the middle of the venn diagram of people who are skilled with FF and people who like editing wikis... and people who have the time to prepare quality tutorials and such out of their own generosity.

As a casual user, one who doesn't edit filters often, I'd say there would be no need to be a scientist. However, as an innovator who is editing and creating filters, time and patience and editors picks be thy guide. But yeah, it truly would be nice to get Perlin et al to write an updated guide for FF, but again we're bumping up against trade secrets, sources, and methods. FF, as it is, is probably quite a thorn in the side for 'the industry'.

FWIW, I am hoping to have:

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time to prepare quality tutorials and such out of their own generosity.

But I'm always open to offers too.

I've got kind of a bonehead problem going here.I'm working with part of a filter called Warhol 1985 by Garbanzo and I'm trying to change out an old offset component but to save me I can't figure out how to calibrate the new offset component to do what the old one is. Here's a screenshot. The old offset component is producing multiple images.

XIRJA

i agree woth you xirja that to make, new different, innovative and unusual filters you surely need to be like a scientist and experiment and test much, BUT this is possible for you because you already know very much about FF and know how to experiment in the right way, and have much experience with FF, but for beginners is not as easy

SKYBASE

thanks for making the mini tutorial to help, take your time to do it, as you know how to do it well

DJI

Yes, the old offset component is different than the new one, and it happened to me too that replacing one old for one new does NOT give the same result with the same values, but there was somewhere in the forum a explanation how to replace right this offset component, and it was easy, but I do not remember how it was

Yes, a lot of behaviors of components changed since 2.0. This is why I highly suggest using the latest components.

And for all sorts of reasons, while it's easier to do stuff beyond 2.0, FilterForge 1.0 was actually and probably the most easiest to fully understand what was going on.

I think that's a great idea Rick. But it seems to me that the people that make the software should provide ample instruction on how to use it. And SpaceRay. I looked for that thread on offset components and couldn't find it but I'll keep looking.Thanx.

I agree, components alone don't help a lot. My plan is to have examples (a couple for simple components, 4 or 5 for more complex ones) showing how each component is used in a practical way (that is, with other components). With an attempt at both the mathematical and plain english explanations of what is going on. Although I seem to be more techy than some of you, don't let the geeky language fool you, I know very little about all of the FF components and will be learning more about FF as I go along. I'll probably post Word & PDF documents of the proto reference for now at my website. Hopefully I'll have a couple of component reference examples in a couple of weeks. Also as I work I will request "the FF gang" to send me filter URLs that have components you are interested in learning, plus passing any knowledge my way.

Skybase: would it be alright if I run my first edit of the reference by you, just for a sanity check?

... the Bomber reference might be a chapter in itself ...

I would suggest making a separate thread to discuss offsets. This thread is kinda a broad over view of learning FF / how we should teach FF discussion.

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Skybase: would it be alright if I run my first edit of the reference by you, just for a sanity check?

Yeup! Send me stuff and I can always look through it. Although I honestly think you'd know more than I do in terms of the technical stuff but I can verify definitely.

I'll drop off another learning idea that I've mentioned in the past:
Learn Photoshop - a lot of FilterForge components follow similar things to what Photoshop does. I would highly suggest taking time to learn to create effects by hand using Photoshop's tools and then transition that knowledge to FilterForge. While you won't be able to take every step of the way into FilterForge, you should be able to compensate parts of your method using what the nodes are already capable of. Where some things are missing, you'll need to figure a way to make those... and you can ask those kinds of things on the forums. "Hey how do I make a ripple effect using this or that" <--- this is a lot more specific than asking "how do I use component x y z".

This photoshop approach has basically been the way I learned this program. And likewise in Photoshop, we're not thinking mathematics, we're thinking creatively. So that feeling comes along with it. Plus the other fun thing is that Photoshop's such a standard in the image editing industry, a lot of the tools you'll be using will be closely related. Some of the ideas you do in Photoshop can be translated to ideas in programs such as Modo for texturing purposes.

Another tip:
Ask questions that are specific. I think a lot of people are just wondering on a larger scale of things. For example people are asking: "How do I use the bomber" or "how do I use the lookup component" which are fine questions but they're infinitely broad.

So for a question like "how do I use the bomber" you'd want to add more context to the question. Which goes back to the point about having a goal. I want to know what you're trying to make so I can guide you in that direction. That's a million times easier to answer and it also has the benefit of actually answering something to help yourself out, which overall leads to a better feeling that you actually are accomplishing something.

To be honest, these are kinda like life tips as well. Being generally specific with your questions and answers gets you the right people. Applying knowledge fr om other places is a must when learning something new. Having a goal that you can commit to gets you somewh ere. Etc etc. I think it works towards getting what you're interested in.

I think that also another way to learn and show how to use FF is to explain WHY is used specific components in some filters, I mean why to get the result given it has been used those components.

Of course I do not mean to explain the obvious and easy ones, I mean to explain why are used for example the Lookup, noises, Extract XXX, Assemble XXX, Minimum and maximum level, and any of the RGB maps, Curve and Curves Ops and the combinations with bomber and other not so clear components

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I also never see you ask questions like "how does this part of the filter work?" or like "Can you explain to me what you're doing with this group of components?" And I'm sure most authors will kindly answer those questions, even community members can join in on the discussion. (I honestly feel we kinda lack that kind of discussion, wh ere we respectfully critique a filter).

This is the problem with teaching, concepts are a lot harder to communicate than the building blocks. And if the communication between "teacher" and "student" gets off track, then everyone is kind of wasting their time.

I've been on the fence about starting with the Component reference manual for this very reason. I really want to get across concepts. Not, this component has a range of 0 - 1 for this reason or that. And I am at that stage where I am quite fluent in some parts of filter building, but in other ways rather useless I could be in over my head.

Thanks Skybase for keeping this going, I need to get a handle on what I can offer to the FF community conceptually. I might go ahead and dissect the InfiniteFloor snippet from the forum if the original filter author doesn't add his thoughts.

Sorry that in the last 2 years I have done really very little about filter forging as I was very busy with working in other things for life, so have not time to learn much more

First of all I want to thanks specially to Skybase for all the great, useful, constructive, helpful, and great comments done in this hread, also of course to all the others who have joined this thread and tried to help too and is great and thankfull

3 years ago around same date I started this thread and I have to say that I was wrong before in how to explain what I wanted to explain, and I did some bad comments above and I am sorry I could not be as awesome and good as Skybase, and I feel bad I was doing the thing wrongly, but I want to do it better now

Now I feel things differently and think that can now see the things in a different way, and thanks to the help of he comments on this thread can do things better.

Please tell me anything that you feel that I may be doing wrong, as I want to learn and keep getting better, have still lot to learn about life

EXAMPLE THREAD - ONE IDEA = WHAT COMPONENTS WOULD BE NEEDED

I bump this thread today to give thanks and also to show what I wanted to explain after this thread I made yesterday

Avoid Tiles component to divide image in half with Value 1?

I asked how to do this thing, and Skybase answered fast and wisely shown this nifty and great idea of using the FF components to make what I wanted

So what I wanted to explain is that if you have already an idea of what you want to achieve, Skilled and experienced FF users know what components would be needed to build it and get that result, and althouh maybe could still probably some kind of experimenting would be much faster if you already know the fundamentals and basic knowledge of what could be used for doing things and how the components can be combined together.

Is like the awesome, great, lovely, useful and very helpful Working with shapes tutorials by CFandM where he shows how to combine FF components and how they behave to get the result that you may want, and does it in such a great way starting from basic and growing until complex shapes

Thanks very much for all the help given